Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

I think that if you think men don't judge women just as harshly, or more so, then you must have been fortunate enough never to have been treated as "one of the guys", or to overhear a group of them talking to each other when they don't think women are listening.

Idonteatfriedturtle

Stop being so angry and lashing out. Clearly I'm not saying women sexually harass or in some way assault other women, but I am saying women negatively judge other women, you do see it on here all the time, there are constant threads about how women dress, slagging them off. It is what it is. Stop attacking everyone and just have a discussion.

The way women police each other’s clothing/bodies/sexuality is part of the patriarchy. We are taught to do it and breaking free of it can be challenging. This sometimes gets confused and comes out as all that ‘choosey choosey choice, empowerment’ stuff.
‘Who really benefits?’ Is always a good question to ask.

For all we know, these two female leaders were instructed to ‘have a chat’ with FloralB’s daughter by a male leader.

Sorry not read whole thread, but ILoveHumanity talking about both genders in relation to bodies - both SEXES. Gender is a make up construct, it has nothing to do with whether a human being has boobs, that is SEX, female biology.
The idea that a female person with large boobs should cover up or be commented on is a gendered response, if the same is not being said of male people, but male and female people are both sexes, not both genders.

It's interesting though. Children do need to learn about appropriate and inappropriate dress. E.g. For job interviews. But it's so hard to provide this advice, for risk of offending people.

And if we can't provide this advice or guidance to children, then how can we expect them to get it right?

subjectivity is everything.

The way women police each other’s clothing/bodies/sexuality is part of the patriarchy. We are taught to do it and breaking free of it can be challenging. This sometimes gets confused and comes out as all that ‘choosey choosey choice, empowerment’ stuff.‘Who really benefits?’ Is always a good question to ask

Yep. Crabs in a barrel would be a decent metaphor. Which doesn't mean that it's OK for a grown woman to shame a teenager for something she has no control over - it's an explanation, not an excuse, and Floral should absolutely point out to the person in question that it's really not on.

Stop being so angry and lashing out. Clearly I'm not saying women sexually harass or in some way assault other women, but I am saying women negatively judge other women, you do see it on here all the time, there are constant threads about how women dress, slagging them off. It is what it is. Stop attacking everyone and just have a discussion.

I'm not "attacking" people, I don't appreciate boring sexist bullshit being posted as fact. As kittens say, I can only assume you've never actually been around many men. Men make pretty vile comments about the clothing choices of women. I'd rather be told that chartreuse is so not my colour than that i look like a filthy slut because I've got a short skirt on.

it is part of being a Christian to dress modestly
Says who?
The Bible.

Also, if you have enormous tatas that make you feel self conscious the last thing you are likely to want is a nipple-hiding padded bra that makes your overall silhouette even more pronounced.

As a smaller busted woman I am sometimes envious of the non-padded bras that are sold for larger sizes. Anything under a C cup seems to me to be so padded that it looks like it still has tits in when it’s in the laundry basket.
Freaky.

I do think often some of the policing that some women do of girls and their clothing is maybe actually coming from a place of fear for the girl. And right or wrong, I won't judge women for trying to control a situation that can be quite threatening as harshly as the men who create the threatening situation.

It's yet another manifestation of the cultural idea that women's bodies are never quite right. Small boobs? Better pad those out a bit. Large boobs? Hide your shame, harlot!

(No, I don't want a "minimizer", as the feeling of being squished is not one I particularly enjoy.)

Totally agree AAK

The leaders in question need to be informed as to where their responsibility starts and ends - if FloralB’s daughter tried to wear flip flops on a hike - fair enough, that’s a health and safety issue.
Wearing summer clothes at a summer camp equivalent to all the other girls on the summer camp?
Not your business, lady-leaders (nor anyone else’s).

To all those saying girls should cover up a bit, my response is that the cultures where women cover up the most are also the cultures where men are the most obsessed with the tiniest bit of skin. Cover up that thigh- suddenly knees are sexy. Cover up that knee- now it’s ankles! Cover those shoulders, now your hair is sexy! Cover up that hair- sorry we still see your face. Actually women, just do not go out. Ever.

I lived for many years in a modesty culture and the men there were the absolute worst for leering. It was so so liberating when I could walk down the street, in shorts, free as a bird in a Western county. No one even looked!

‘Modesty’ is not the answer. Freedom is the way forward.

I was once told that what I was wearing to work was "too sexy". I was wearing a pencil skirt and a polo neck jumper, but, you know, massive norks, can you not leave those at home as they're inappropriate for the workplace?

I did get told by a boss at work that my skirt was too short

But as it was the same length as hers i just ignored it

I lived for many years in a modesty culture and the men there were the absolute worst for leering. It was so so liberating when I could walk down the street, in shorts, free as a bird in a Western county. No one even looked!

Yep. Women get sexually harassed while wearing burqas, abayas, and other loose full body coverings. There is no way a woman can dress that will prevent men from thinking sexual thoughts about her.

I don't particularly want to see other women's nipples, thanks very much.
At work, In the office, for example, I would expect for a woman to wear smart appropriate clothing, with a bra.

There are many many bras that make sure nipples aren't visible. I think every bra I've ever bought has been such.

I imagine this kind of 'helpful advice' could happen in any youth camp, but in a Christian context there's an additional undertone of The Dangers of Lust, fuelled by centuries in theology in which women are held responsible for the presence of sin in the world, based on (mis)interpretations of the Bible. It's not always overt in evangelical communities, but it's usually discernible in the background.

OP, do you plan to speak to the woman at church? If it were me I'd have to say something, although I'd struggle to keep it 'Christian'.

It's making me think of the scene in Carrie where her mother is screaming at her about her "dirty pillows".

I did get told by a boss at work that my skirt was too short But as it was the same length as hers i just ignored it

Are you several feet taller Rufus?

But I dont actually care if you don't want to see women's nipples.
Avert your eyes.

Although, I am curious.. in what way are they more offensive than male nipples which also show through shirts?

Do we think maybe the answer is to start playing them at thri own game? Maybe girls can raise their hands in school and say they can't work because Tommy is distracting them with his sexy arms on show?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ImZ2LrvQcCY

Exactly, AAK!

(Do you remember the Carrie inspired story, ‘Moonchild’ from the girls annual ‘Misty’ by any chance?)

I just wanted to say OP that I hope I manage to raise my daughter in the same way.
Our society is still a long long way off from not being sexist and misogynistic!
Deal with the teenage boys who are distracted, not the teenage girl who cant help how her body looks.

For example; we say - x amount of women were raped. Why not - x amount of men are rapists. It's make it a woman's issue, when its not.

Men's nipples sometimes show through their shirts when it's cold. Maybe we should make them wear a modesty layer, like office workers do in Japan (singlet under white dress shirt worn specifically so other people can't see your nipples and areola). I'm sure the average British bloke will be happy to accommodate, especially if the request is made in the height of summer.