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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman at church shamed my daughter.

278 replies

FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 22:58

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

Angry
OP posts:
BlueJava · 09/08/2018 00:02

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EndOfEternity · 09/08/2018 00:04

Your daughter may have been on the receiving end of utter rubbish at this camp, but got to say sounds like she has fantastic parents! I agree with every word you’ve said, except I couldn’t have put it so eloquently.

staydazzling · 09/08/2018 00:05

Its tricky if she is going bra less in that kind of ultra conservative environment youre going to upset those values. But shaming someone for wearing shorts in this weather is absolute madness!!!

FloralBunting · 09/08/2018 00:07

Thanks to those Christians who have been constructive and the other feminists who have shared my ire about this, reminding me that I'm not off beam to be so ticked off by this.

The sentiment that she had it coming is so fucking far from a feminist sentiment I genuinely can't be bothered with it.

OP posts:
AnnieAnoniMoose · 09/08/2018 00:07

OP. I would suggest telling your daughter to speak to the woman giving sartorial advice and explain that she's prayed for her to be able to resist these thoughts she's having about your daughter's body

^ please, PLEASE, get her to do that!

I would be livid and I would be having words with the woman. They would include ‘Don’t you ever DARE to speak to MY daughter like that again. What she wears is NONE of your business’

FloralBunting · 09/08/2018 00:08

staydazzling, to be absolutely clear, she's never braless, even in bed. The boobs are too big not to be comfortably hammocked at all times.

OP posts:
teta · 09/08/2018 00:10

It is all shades of wrong to discuss this with your daughter without parental involvement first.
But I’m in two minds about this having recently had to tell dd2 who’s 14 to cover up her vest top with a lace bralet underneath. She was travelling on the train by herself. Now she is small busted but got shocked looks from two grandpas at the station when I dropped her off. I had to make her cover up. But she just didn’t understand why I did that. Her and her twin brother said I was being old fashioned . But there’s a fine line between being safe, not attracting attention for the wrong reasons and expressing yourself by the way you dress.

Happyandshiney · 09/08/2018 00:12

I would be volcanically angry about this.

I’d be speaking to the Camp Leader as well as whichever Vicar is associated with the Camp.

As for nipples being inappropriate. I’ve breastfed twins in a church with a congregation of 800. No one batted an eyelid.

bourbonbabs · 09/08/2018 00:14

I had no idea that God had such strong views on nipples, and how their visibility contributes to your daughter's beliefs and behaviour.

Those "leaders" don't seem to be leading enormously well, if their interpretation of their faith, is that the onus is on your daughter to hide her tempting bod; rather than have the other boys/girls eschew temptation.

ItLooksABitOff · 09/08/2018 00:15

YANBU

I am ridiculously well-norked and was from a teen - it has always pissed me off that just wearing a strappy top meant that somehow I was seeking attention/trying to look sexy etc, rather than just hot.

Loving the red nipple tassles.

Menolly · 09/08/2018 00:15

Never going to be a popular view on here but, is there any chance the female leader had a point about the clothes? Obviously it distracting the boys should never have been brought up but I can see a situation on camp where a teen might need a chat about appropriate clothing for the activities they are doing.

I have rather large boobs and work with children, I can't get away with strappy tops at work or when I go on camp, because at some point you end up bending over to help and the kids see right down your top, or you play a wide game and your boob bounces out, I have lots of tops I will happily wear out on a normal day, which look totally fine when I am walking around doing normal stuff but won't wear to work because they don't contain my boobs well enough for some activities.

PintOfMineralWater · 09/08/2018 00:17

Poor chick. Sounds like she's confident enough to laugh it off? But I would be having a word with the "leader".

teta I don't see what is wrong with what your DD was wearing? Sounds like it was the "grandpas'" problem. Women will ALWAYS attract attention, it's little to do with what we wear and everything to do with living in a society where women are constantly scrutinised for the way we act, dress, live. If you're going to tell her to cover up her vest, you might as well tell her to wear a long skirt to cover her legs, or get a burkini for the beach.

FloralBunting · 09/08/2018 00:20

Nope, she's extremely level headed about practicality for physical activity. None of what she wears is 'skimpy', she's aware that her boobs are not small (and hey, now she's hyper aware that all the boys there might be leering at her) so she doesn't wear things which they would be likely to fall out of, especially if there is jumping about going on.

OP posts:
ILoveHumanity · 09/08/2018 00:22

Please don’t beat me up but I’m the type of person that likes mending relations and bridging understanding..

I’m prepared for a backlash but I want to explain the point of view of the woman that spoke to your daughter ...

I believe she wasn’t shaming or blaming, I believe she just expressed things in a bad manner and could’ve approached it better.

I believe , and I’m aware of the different views on this matter, that shaming or victim blaming is an interpretation taken out of context...

I feel what she might have been doing is hold both genders responsible for reducing sexual exposure in a religious camp which seeks to maintain focus on spiritual growth which is certainly clouded by things like sexual desires.

The responsibility would be for BOTH genders to guard the parts of their body which is considered sexually attractive by the majority of the opposite gender.. out of curtesy for those still at the beginning of their spiritual growth and cannot resist the temptation of looking ( I’m aware this will get me some hammering )

And that BOTH genders, not pay attention or stare or look at the other gender in any sexual way .

Now given that this is a youth camp, the boys are still at the beginning of their journey of learning how to behave appropriately and their hormones are peaking ... and the girls can be rather attention seeking and Too focused on their outer appeal to the opposite sex... all a bit too distracting in a camp that’s meant to focus on God.

Please don’t get too precious, and start denying the obvious.

What I do suggest you do is respect that a faith based camp would and should have some dress code... just like there is one in school or military or anything else that seeks to maintain focus. I just think the criticism lies in the approach they should’ve taken.. in that it should’ve been more as a blanket rule and less individual shaming or exclusion.

Understandably , a religious based camp isn’t a place for your daughter to express herself one whatever way she pleases.. it is a place for her to express her religious growth and grow with the rest of the camp. So you are being also unreasonable by not considering the other side of the argument

Crazy3 · 09/08/2018 00:25

So sorry your lovely daughter had to be basically victim shamed by these morons. That is completely out of order and crosses the line of their responsibility to a place they should not have gone.
Absolutely outrageous and I would be complaining formally in writing, and removing her from the care of those absolute idiots. Sadly just because they are part of an organised Christian group does not mean they are kind and share your Christian values. We have many an idiot like this at our church. Say your piece, remove your daughter and leave them to their nonsense.

thebewilderness · 09/08/2018 00:25

ILoveHumanity
Your beliefs are beside the point.
The behavior was inappropriate and unacceptable regardless of the intent.

Lalliella · 09/08/2018 00:27

Well you said it's a Christian camp... what did she expect? That they were going to be liberating and non-judgemental? Sorry but associate with that sort of religion and you've got it coming.

There’s a lot of nonsense about Christianity on this post. Jesus actually preached about being non-judgemental - let he who has no sin cast the first stone - and never mentioned anything about hiding your norkage under a bushel.

I’m a 52 year old Christian and love nothing more than flaunting my post-BF-enhanced cleavage and shapely legs, and wouldn’t put up with anyone’s telling me how to dress. Your daughter shouldn’t either.

Lalliella · 09/08/2018 00:28

*anyone not anyone’s

staydazzling · 09/08/2018 00:29

Oh right sorry OP in that case totally bonkers! Confused im in the 'bra has to be worn in bed' camp too

Menolly · 09/08/2018 00:29

she's extremely level headed about practicality for physical activity Oh, yeah there wasn't any need for the advice then. I'd suggest DD loudly comments on every outfit the leader wears and asks her to justify why her outfit choices are ok and DD's aren't, but I am quite childish.

WindowsSmindows · 09/08/2018 00:29

lovely reply humanity.
I am watching this discussion with interest as I can really see both sides.

Delancy · 09/08/2018 00:31

Me too.

FloralBunting · 09/08/2018 00:31

I'm not going to beat you up, IloveHumanity, but I will challenge you back. She is not dressing in any different way to anyone else on that camp. She is not dressing in an attention seeking way in the slightest. She is not demanding that she be given special privileges to do anything that no one else is doing. She is just wearing shorts, jeans a couple of days ago, and an assortment of strappy tops, floaty blouses, normal clothes that you will see other women wearing in the high street every day and not bat an eyelid.

She actually went along to this event feeling like she needed the time to really think and pray about her future education choices and career, and she's really upset that this superficial crap has distracted her from the things that really are important to her.

OP posts:
OrchidInTheSun · 09/08/2018 00:32

This thread ShockShockShock

donquixotedelamancha · 09/08/2018 00:35

what did she expect? That they were going to be liberating and non-judgemental? Sorry but associate with that sort of religion and you've got it coming.

So..... you think Christians are too judgemental and anyone who associates with them has 'got it coming'? Self awareness is not a strength is it?

Please don’t beat me up but I’m the type of person that likes mending relations and bridging understanding.. Followed by 376 words of understanding free drivel.

How can you read OP's thoughtful, Christian posts and get it so wrong? What you just spouted @ILoveHumanity is gnosticism, not Christianity.

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