Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

This sort of stuff is rife in USA schools in some states, loads of incidents with girls in perfectly normal clothes being sent home as they are "distracting the boys". Disgraceful and very common over there - hate to see it coming over here. Things do seem to be regressing in a lot of areas at the moment though (while progessing in others!).

I'm guessing this person is not substantial of nork, and/or has a job that involved no physical movement of any kind.

LOL. Not a clue, have they? I can assure them they would notice if I didn't wear a bra.

Nah I think they were not in good faith.

It's just way too ridiculous.

I think that comment even came after someone saying they had big tits and at mid forties they are pretty low slung and so would be swinging around all over the place at waist level.

"No one would notice"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This sort of stuff is rife in USA schools in some states, loads of incidents with girls in perfectly normal clothes being sent home as they are "distracting the boys". Disgraceful and very common over there - hate to see it coming over here. Things do seem to be regressing in a lot of areas at the moment though (while progessing in others!).

I suspect that is simply down to the fact they don't wear uniforms in the US and do wear them here. Girls are policed on the length of their skirts as much here.

Agree Turtle.

A bit like the burqa argument with the men not being able to control themselves

It's not just about length of skirts by a long chalk.

And they are told to their faces that they are distracting the boys / or male parents / male teachers.

Have you read lots of these stories from the USA before commenting? The states they come from are ones where there is much more of a right wing religious flavour.

I read the thread title and assumed your daughter had been pulled up in front of the entire congregation and shamed in front of everyone.

In reality, the leader had an opinion, discussed it with another church member then addressed your daughter privately?

Is this 'shaming'?

I'm not sure where I stand on the (in)appropriate clothing debate but I do think the title is misleading.

Have you read lots of these stories from the USA before commenting?

I am American, and yes also do read a lot of American articles.

If the UK allowed the children to dress as they wished here we most certainly would see an upswing in the policing of acceptable clothing.
As we don't, we put them in matching uniforms, and then police the length of the girl's skirt we forced her to wear.

We are already preemptively policing the girls clothing by not letting them wear spaghetti straps to start out with.

And they are told to their faces that they are distracting the boys / or male parents / male teachers

I've seen similar here, hence the policing of skirt lengths.

As well as the truly hideous legal sex-specific uniforms.

Why are we allowed to dictate to girls that they must wear a skirt at all in this country?

In reality, the leader had an opinion, discussed it with another church member then addressed your daughter privately?Is this 'shaming'?

She is teaching the girl to be ashamed of her body and to feel that her body is not appropriate in public.

Yes it is shaming. The poor girl was made to feel ashamed. She did nothing wrong. Makes me fume.

As others have said, just saying it in the first place is shaming enough. But no, she did not do it in private, she did it while my daughter was with her non Christian friend who had been invited to the camp by my daughter as a guest.

So this woman has been looking at your daughter's nipples and feels they are unbearably tempting for the boys on the camp? Maybe she's the one with the problem.

I am afraid I agree with LittlePaintBox

I also think it's shaming. But whatever the word, it's not this woman's place to telll the ops daughter how to dress.

I'm livid on your daughter's behalf. How very dare that woman publicly rebuke her on her choice of clothing like that?

I'm glad she has you and your DP to help her navigate this patriarchal prudish bollocks. And I'd absolutely complain to the church that this inappropriate, shaming behaviour happened at their event.

I'm currently staying with my DPs, both 90, Both brought up in fairly conservative Christian families. They do things like attend parish weekends. My DF is truthfully a vague agnostic these days though my DM is still very devout and, to my mind, the best sort of Christian. I read your OP out to them over lunch FloralBunting, with a bit of background.

They were horrified. My mum said "How very unChristian" in a faintly shocked voice. She suggests that the leadership be informed formally, as this should not pass unremarked. We talked about how people of both sexes so often say "boys will be boys" and blame girls for their behaviour. DF thought that Christian leadership for the boys should be addressing their part in this.

Just thought it was interesting that even much older traditionally Christian people think what happened to your DD was really not on. And, incidentally, they both loved norkage, not a word they'd ever heard.

@FloralBunting as you may remember I'm a Christian and all this stuff is just so tiresome.

So sorry for your dd.

My dd's school is not Christian and they are always going on about skirt length!

Good god its almost as if there are both sexist and non sexist religious people.

I’m a Christian and a feminist and this thread has been really interesting. Thank you to all those Christians and/or feminists who have shared wise thoughts.

Is there any recommended reading for a radical feminist / “radical” Christian (in the sense that I think it’s really rather important to note that Jesus spent a lot of his tine with women/outcasts/etc.)

@spindelina there are several well known posters in FWr who are also Christian. It might be worth starting a specific thread to get some answers as it might get missed here.

@spindelina I'm a Christian and feminist. Of you start a thread, please do tag me in.

Perhaps they should have a word with God about the way he designed women's bodies if they are not happy.

Or better still, to revisit the design ofen that means they are so easily distracted.

If they feel it is that big a problem.

• design of men