Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

(Note that I do not actually think this is a good idea. Humans have nipples, we should all be able to cope with that realization imo.)

I think you should ask for meeting with these two women. They need to be educated.

I'm actually veering between annoyed and amused that the existence of my daughter's nipples is such a provoking thing. I don't know how much clearer I can make it for those struggling with the concept; this was a youth camping event not a work situation or an interview, it's summer, she was wearing summer clothes, and she has big norks which are each adorned with a nipple which she covers up in the normally understood culturally appropriate manner for the UK in 2018.

She has never done anything in her life that would lead anyone to think she was a tease or anything sexually negative, she has had the same boyfriend since she was 14 and they are so serious about not leading each other on that they always chill out together in places they know they have a strong possibility of being disturbed.

She's not a strumpet, consciously or unconsciously, and by the standards of most teens these days, she's really quite old fashioned in behaviour.

This whole thing is just bloody barking.

It's not about wearing revealing clothes. It's about being so crass as to imply (sneaky, as it's not said directly) that if you're curvy with big boobs youve no right to wear clothes a slimmer, more flat chested girl may wear. Your body is 'wrong'

Worrying that it's ok to instill this message in young girls, but on numerous MN thread when an adult woman is a bit worried about Summer gear, it's "wear what you want, nothing to do with anyone else!" So what if you're not slim/tall etc.

Shocking hypocrisy. & not just in the church either.

100% agree with all the posters who have said that the issue here is not the clothes but the body of the girl / woman underneath.

And that should never be an issue as it's simply her body.

I think this proves the point I was making op. Even on a feminist forum someone appears to demand that all women hide the offensive natural shape of their bodies by wearing a restrictive bra. This is the society we live in and it always amazes me when people respond with shock and in this instance attribute it to some kind of religious fundamentalism. Of course we should address it and expect each other to address it but often I feel people here must be living in a much more metropolitan and enlightened corner of the world than mine.

The way women police each other’s clothing/bodies/sexuality is part of the patriarchy. We are taught to do it and breaking free of it can be challenging. This sometimes gets confused and comes out as all that ‘choosey choosey choice, empowerment’ stuff.
‘Who really benefits?’ Is always a good question to ask.

I agree and have always been into the idea of being able to wear whatever you like without shame. Agree the "empowerfulmentising" narrative is confusing and compelling to women, especially young ones. It was only when I truly thought about that question that I realised what it was about.

Isn't nearly everyone saying the same thing though, that these attitudes are prevalent across society, almost to th extent of being ingrained, simply the whole evangelical thing means it more likely that folks will be open about their attitudes, because they use their religion as a platform to justify it, instead of starting threads on it, positing it anonymously, thinking it, or speaking about it behind someone's back?

My perspective is that the religion is being used as an excuse and justification for behavior that's baked into society. Religion was invented by humans and therefore reflects all of the prejudices and assumptions of the society that created it.

No I'm saying something different, that internalised mysogyny isn't often something a woman is aware of or understands. She needs to be given an opportunity to see it for what it is.

She isn't necessarily 'using her religion to justify it' at all and probably doesn't feel she needs to.

There is a particular type of shame that religion imposes. There is little scope for resisting it because of the doctine of sin. That type of shame is not present in non-religious circles to the same extent. There have been some pps here who suggest girls should show ‘respect’ for their bodies by covering up. I reject that- I respect my body regardless of who can see it. But I think that viewpoint exists outside religion.

In the last few years I have really begun covering up on the beach. Not quite a burkini, but quite covered up due to the sun.

I am pretty much ‘no fucks given’ but it has been surprising to me how much more relaxed and unselfconscious I feel. These narratives are much more internalised than we realise.

And then if you have messages from the mainstream culture telling you that stripping is empowering and so on hitting you at the same time you have a lovely recipe for cognitive dissonance.

Is anyone else old enough to remember the furore —salivating— that broke out when Charlie Dimocke wore no bras on GroundForce?

God yes may

Renewed (male) interest in gardening shows

Yes Maybe!

Woman with no bra shocker.

I think it might be more shocking now maybe?

The expectation that women wear bras is both sexist and ageist IMO.

I feel much more comfy without but no way would start wandering around outdoors without one on.

There was someone on here the other day saying that the societal stuff around bra wearing is imaginary and actually we could all go to work with no bras on and no one would even notice.

I found that post utterly baffling!

Because yes everyone would notice and no it would not be OK!

I used to go to outdoorsy summer camps but have had small boobs back then. I wore a mixture of different tops. Thinking back, it would have been impossible to hide big boobs:
strappy top= mighty cleavage even if not very low necked.
Crew neck close fitting T shirt= no cleavage but unbroken neckline emphasises vast boob acreage. Plus more sweaty-pit problem than strappy or loose fitting tops
V neck close fitting top only partly solves above problem, still got boobulous outline
Looser fitting V neck top= less outline but if you lean forward, even a little bit....cleavage alert!!
Loose fitting crew neck ie man's T shirt= can end up looking a bit shapeless as it drapes off the front shelf; and any man's shirt or T shirt big enough to fit across the boobs without straining will be a huge tent elsewhere
Women's shirts= often polyestery ie sweaty, or very thin material like those aertex PE shirts (can see bra label through them)
Gypsy tops= buxom barmaid wench
Normal bra= nipples!
Padded T shirt bra= no nipples but makes boobs look bigger, plus sweating into those things in summer- yuk and they take longer to dry after washing
(Summer camp activities in the heat= sweat despite antiperspirant).
Thick material= too hot
Thin material= see through
White= more see through
Dark colours= absorb more heat rather than reflecting it
You just can't win so I would just relax and wear what's comfortable as long as boobs aren't actually literally falling out.
Most teenage boys are going to be at least briefly sort of aware of everyone's boob size- big or small- but most learn not to gawp or say anything.

There was someone on here the other day saying that the societal stuff around bra wearing is imaginary and actually we could all go to work with no bras on and no one would even notice.

I'm guessing this person is not substantial of nork, and/or has a job that involved no physical movement of any kind.

Imagine if you had a job that involved running up and down stairs. Nope, nobody will notice!

Kudos to Charlie Dimmock now I come to think of it.

Also that she was a very no nonsense type of woman so as much as all the men could pretend she didn't put a bra on so they could see her tits swinging about, they probably couldn't quite shake the awful, earth shattering and inhumane suspicion that maybe her reasons had nothng to do with men at all

Kittens I came to the conclusion that they were not entirely what they were pretending to be!

Because no woman NO WOMAN in the UK thinks that any woman here could go to work with no bra on and no one would even notice I mean it's incomprehensible! And nonsense.

I’m sorry this happened to your daughter. I experienced shaming like this from a beloved relative. I went to stay with my Aunty during summer vacation. I was twelve. Didn’t like wearing bras and was relatively small chested at the time.
My Aunt was a devote Christian. She asked me to attend church with her on Sunday. I put on a blouse and skirt, all set to go. My aunt was clearly upset about something. I heard her on the phone to my mother, telling her she would not be taking me to church as I wasn’t wearing a bra and she could see my nipples.
I ran to hide and cry. My mum came to pick me up soon after. We never discussed the incident. My memory is still filled with shame.

The problem isn't teenage boys. The problem is the sanctimonious attitude of the Christian group leaders.

I've come across lots of people like this and they like nothing better than to shame people and put them down. But because they're Christian they do with a fake smile on their face and pretend it's for your own good.

This is the sort of nonsense that infuriates me about seemingly held 'church views' (I am a Christian and well involved in a church)

Honestly I'd encourage you to challenge them and educate them about how their thought process is so damaging and out of touch.

Power shower: absolutely brilliant summary there!

Yep, big boobs are big boobs and it's just the way some of us are made.

It's also perfectly normal for boys / men to find them intriguing. As long as they don't leer or touch just leave them to it. I'd be worried about teenage boys being made to feel bad about feelings which are completely normal. Spend the time / energy teaching young people about consent and respect.

Luckily OPs daughter sounds like she has her head screwed on right! I hope she is still able to enjoy the rest of the camp.