Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

Idonteatfriedturtle

Your post is conflicted, on one had you attack the poster for saying this is what's expected at these camps, then you state you stay away from these camps because you also expect it. You attacked then said the same thing. It's illogical.

Good morning, all. This seems to have hit quite the nerve.

The Christian camp is an extremely mainstream one, connected to the CofE and not in the SW. Yes, it is part of the evangelical wing of the church, but in the UK that doesn't necessarily mean the same as the US. It's not dodgy, my daughter is not in danger - they are extremely conscientious about safeguarding, as you would expect from a CofE affiliated event.

This was nothing to do with maintaining a camp wide dress code. This woman is part of my daughter's church and had been discussing it with another youth leader based on what Dd wears generally.

I cannot stress enough that my Dd wears normal clothes. We came out of a movement which requires women to cover their hair and wear voluminous prairie dresses, so I'm not under any illusions about the attitude some Christians have about clothing. But this church was specifically chosen by us because it's a run of the mill CofE. Yes, it's part of the evangelical wing, but there are women teaching there, and a few happy, unoppressed gay people too.

To those who think that this is part and parcel of being a Christian and we should all just walk away, firstly, given that my husband and I are Christians, and we do not subscribe to this kind of middle class conservatism, proof quoting at me is rather pointless. I know those verses better than you do, and have spent a long time moving away from the kind of Christianity that uses the bible that way.

Bowl has written a couple of posts which do well to highlight why not all Christians are swayed by chapter and verse style coercion, and I will add that my own tradition and indeed the CofE holds the bible with a very light touch, as a document that arises from a very specific context and needs to be handled with care, rather than a magic text in which every word is the booming voice of the Almighty.

Patriarchy is inherent in our culture, top to bottom. And yes, religion is part of that. So are management structures and the way the medical system is run and politics, but I'm not going to give up work, or never use healthcare or vote. I believe the basic tenets of Christianity are true, as does my daughter. As those basic tenets have nothing to do with nipples or shaming girls with large breasts, I am quite content that we will be able to practise our faith without needing to accept patriarchy, especially in this context.

The woman in question is someone we know reasonably well, and I am shocked that she felt she had a right to make these comments, and shocked that she thought it was appropriate. I am even more unsettled that this attitude is bubbling under the surface of others in the church and wonder how many other girls are going to fall under this kind of censure. The individual culture in churches does change over time and I would be quite happy to discuss with my husband whether or not this particular church is really the best place for them any more.

I've gone on long enough. They're back today, so I should go and ice a cake for their return.

I am ridiculously well-norked and was from a teen - it has always pissed me off that just wearing a strappy top meant that somehow I was seeking attention/trying to look sexy etc, rather than just hot.

This. I wore a red strappy dress yesterday because it is hot and a man on the train wouldn't stop staring which I could see in my peripheral vision. I looked straight on and he didn't look away, he kept staring. Arrogant prick. I bet he thought I was asking for it.

well it IS a Christian camp, there will be prudish types there..

Well that is religion for you.

It's funny how people will default to the letters to the churches parts of the bible to defend the demands for women to cover up but no one ever seems to mention that bit (from the sermon on the Mount I think - ages since I set foot in a church) where Jesus tells men that if they sexually objectify a woman (I'm paraphrasing) they should pluck their eyes out.

Jesus was having none of your patriarchy shite.

Betty, ha! I don't know mate, maybe I really am a Radfem at heart and it's all bleeding through despite my best efforts!

Hardest thing for me in this world is trying to stay true to my conscience in the difficult things. But I will keep trying.

Yes, these attitudes are exactly why my other daughter is struggling so much and has decided to opt out entirely. Which is probably one of the reasons why I'm so cross.

My eldest is not wearing revealing clothes, and she is not showing off her nipples. They can occasionally be noticed in any top, through a bra, because she has big boobs. It really is no more alluring or provocative than that.

Your post is conflicted, on one had you attack the poster for saying this is what's expected at these camps, then you state you stay away from these camps because you also expect it. You attacked then said the same thing. It's illogical.

no, it's not. I stay away from atheist groups because I choose to, and can't be arsed to fight to hang around MRAs that's my right. If my friend went to one and got a load of abuse and evo psych about men hunting the mammoth we wouldn't say "well what do you expect" though. Or would you?

No, but that's what people are doing here as though Christians are too stupid to avoid sexism and it can't evolve.

Sexism permeates out entire culture. Saying "what do you expect" is lazy and unhelpful

I think op you've maybe been naive in thinking that as it's no longer the extreme sect you were previously involved in that they would not still have an underlying current of negative judgement and sexism. In fact we know you were as two of the female leaders have just proven it.

These attitudes exist in people's heads all too commonly, but I do think there is a higher potential for openly encountering it when you are at an evangelical Christian camp. In fact I suspect it was almost a given.

I'm not sure this is a Christian issue...there are conservative types in most walks of life.

And who are these people with massive nipples that can be seen through a bra and top? I've never noticed this! But then I haven't been looking out for them.

Saying "what do you expect" is lazy and unhelpful

Agree, but my point is, so is avoiding it and doing nothing. I don't know how "can't be arsed" can be deemed as anything but.

I think thr poster was saying this was to be expected of an evangelical group, and that's probably fair. People can vote with their feet and not go to these things as you are, as I don't. But plenty others are there buying into this shit, the ops daughter is not there alone.

Bluntness, that's very fair. I clearly have been naive in my assessment of these particular women. I think perhaps it's a case of being in the dark for so long, coming out of that and having to adjust to daylight. At first, everything looks very bright, but then you acclimatise and you begin to see the crappy stuff with more clarity.

I remember my dds going on a Christian camp and not being allowed to wear bikinis in the swimming pool because of the teenage boys.

I mean, unless the point of Christianity is to never be near "temptation" so as to remain good, what are the boys actually learning? Can they never be near cake so as not to have gluttonous thoughts too? Don't go in a shop because they might consider stealing? Don't have neighbours so they can't covet their wives? Surely their "impure" thoughts are their shit to work though?

Op, don't get me wrong, if my daughter was accosted on how she dressed I would have left blood on the table.

And I do think these attitudes exist all too commonly, as I keep saying it's fairly constant on here there is a thread negatively judging how a woman dresses, her weight, or even things like the work she's had done.

I just suspect there is more likely hood it will happen openly in an evangelical setting. Probably more hidden in a non evangelical setting.

Religion when it starts to move to extremes, has a lot to answer for. It really does sadly become a platform for the warped in society. They use their religion as a means to justify their bigoted behaviour.

I don't know if it being hidden, or whispered behind peoples backs, talked about behind closed doors, makes it any better though. It's simply this shit is widespread in society.

Well, I've always found it interesting that this kind of Christianity focuses so much on women restricting themselves in case they cause sin - when the Ten Commandments have not one word to say about women's clothing, but they do say to men "Don't covet your neighbour's wife". So actually, if we're going to proof text, the only commandments in the bible that were written by the finger of God put all the emphasis on men to sort out their own shit.

Growing up is horrible for young women. I think whether we grow up in a secular or spiritual culture we encounter sexism and sexist stereotypes. And it's not just from men. Women want to enforce and uphold the status quo. Fortunately there are plenty of Christian feminist groups, some of which may provide support and affirmation.

I'd also suggest that Quakers - the tradition I know best - have a strong commitment to equality.

Exactly! But it's so much easier to just tell a teenager to walk around covered up head to toe.

In my experience women negatively judge other women more than men do. You just have to spend a few days on here to see it. So for me it's no surprise it was two females who had a go at the ops daughter.

"They can occasionally be noticed in any top, through a bra, because she has big boobs."

Now I'm confused. At the start of the thread, you said the issue was that she was wearing floaty blouses and strappy tops, and her nipples were on show. Now you say it's that her nipples show through the bras in any top? Why can't she wear a t-shirt bra that has a bit more fabric? I have small boobs, but thanks to breastfeeding my 3DDs, I have very prominent, dark nipples, which would show through any normal bra and any floaty top would be a disaster. T-shirt bras and that sort of firm fabric bra takes care of that issue, so that I can have a smooth bust line under tops.

I think perhaps it's a case of being in the dark for so long, coming out of that and having to adjust to daylight. At first, everything looks very bright, but then you acclimatise and you begin to see the crappy stuff with more clarity.

And also a fair bit of being hopeful, I'd think. It's tempting to think that somewhere there's a place/group/society in which this misogynistic nonsense isn't deeply embedded, but if there is I haven't found it yet and I've been to a whole lot of different places.

Aw, Floral

It’s shitty for both of ‘em, huh? And by extension, young women and girls everywhere.

I had an enormous benorked gal pal at secondary school and in hindsight she was absolutely expected to have ‘bubbly page 3’ personality (eye roll) to match. In reality she was more of a sporty tom boy type but the aertex PE shirts gave even less coverage than a school blouse/tie/blazer combo and other girls were just as judgemental of her body (albeit in a different way) as the boys. Adults were no better than school kids.

So I think the above comments (can’t remember who made them, but AAK’s was the funniest version) about the policing/judging being about bodies rather than clothes is true. An A-B cupped teen of the same age in the same outfit wouldn’t be getting the same ‘helpful ‘ advice.

As long as your daughter’s clothes were appropriate for the weather and activities from a health and safety point of view it has absolutely cock-all to do with the leaders of the camp (or anyone else).

I did not say her nipples were on show. That was what was said to my daughter. She wears floaty chiffony gypsy tops, she wears vests with straps on that are a bit more form fitting. To ensure that there was never any hint of the fact that she has nipples would require her to wear layers, loose clothing and possibly a t-shirt style thick bra. You can sometimes spot that she has nipples in some of her vests if you are staring at her chest.

I believe the basic tenets of Christianity are true, as does my daughter. As those basic tenets have nothing to do with nipples or shaming girls with large breasts, I am quite content that we will be able to practise our faith without needing to accept patriarchy, especially in this context.

I'm an atheist but I can get behind this!

In my experience women negatively judge other women more than men do. You just have to spend a few days on here to see it. So for me it's no surprise it was two females who had a go at the ops daughter.

Really? How many women have decided a woman was "up" for being sexually harassed because of her clothing, and then gone on to sexually harras them? Fucking hell, I hate that "women are their own worst enemies bullshit". It just ignores all reality.

Why should anyone wear a thick, padded tshirt bra in the middle of summer just so other people can pretend they don't have nipples? It's hot as balls, let girls be comfortable.