Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

I'm going to preface this by admitting that I'm not a practising Christian but I worked in a Christian company for a long time in the Charity sector and the majority of women I worked with were very committed Christians...the majority

The biggest thing I learned was there was a difference between a true Christian ( who would be entirely horrified at what these women have said) and those that used their faith as a platform to spew hate and bile

Those were very much of the ilk that would comment this sort of thing

One of my bosses was fantastic (as I rose he became my colleague and we got on well) this was a man who had adopted to give children a new start from another country , financially and literally supported an orphanage, was the truest most decent person you'd come across...withoit an iota of sexism in him

When I fell pregnant...o sat in a board meeting where one of the less pleasant managers asked if it was appropriate that I was there given that I was showing and passive aggressively with a saccharine smile asked me if I felt it was a little indelicate given my condition ?

As I and the CEO opened our mouths (my colleague was aware the likelihood of expletive in my response so possibly jumped in to prevent that) my colleague loudly tore him politely and eloquently to pieces....pointing out that God had given me the ability to become pregnant and that should be celebrated that a baby was bring brought into the world by a mother who would be intensely loving and it was something to be celebrated not to be ashamed of

When the offender asked if I was at least married (he later got disciplined for that one) my CEO asked him why he thought that was his business or relevant and kicked him out (I was as it happens and had been for three years but as I was secular he assumed that I was obviously a Harlot....a good at my job and respected but Harlot none the less apparently)

So my point is this is not a Christian thing , this is a female insecurity thing

From my view real Christians do not shame the female or male body but consider it a celebration of god

OP you shouldn't have to justify to us or anyone else what she was wearing....fi e I grant you that a full chorus girl outfit may be inappropriate socially but hardly shorts and a top

If they believe God created them ...how do they not realise that he created said nipples as well?

Please do raise it with them...their insecurity and bigotry needs to be challenged

And you sound like an amazing mum for the way your daughter sees herself

Some of the evangelical churches have very negative views of the position and rightful sphere of women.

No women in national leadership positions.
Men are the head of the household.
No sex before marriage.
Lots of unpaid labour from clergy spouses.

But on first glance they are so fun, so casual and the music is so good!

Some churches have paid workers whose whole role is to work closely with university Christian Unions and lure students to churches off campus...

Sexism is everywhere. When women irl show sexist ways of thinking I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and explain why it is sexist to them first, giving them the opportunity to have that moment of dawning realisation and potentially create a new feminist rather than shaming them on the internet. Note the use of the word "bitching" in one of these comments, the higher expectations of a woman than of a man and someone above calling her a "female". If she stumbles across this thread with all its judgment, assumption and hypocrisy you can be sure she'll never go near feminism again.

The biggest thing I learned was there was a difference between a true Christian ( who would be entirely horrified at what these women have said) and those that used their faith as a platform to spew hate and bile

I think this is true of most religions. They attract a certain type of person who uses it's as a platform to spew bile and hate.

More people have been killed globally in thr name of religion than anything else.

Some of the evangelical churches have very negative views of the position and rightful sphere of women

I think this is also probably accurate and is part of what the ops daughter is experiencing with these people.

I fins or ridiculous how showing nipples is even anyone's buisness. Yes women have nipples. So what why should we cover up bodies!?

I recall at Christian teen camp the phrase ‘leading your brothers into sin’ was often used to shame young women into wearing longer shorts or higher tops. I remember it was not acceptable to show bra straps. As an adult I think- wtf

Sounds as though the woman needs a refresher course on why women have nipples.

I don't mind naming and shaming the dodgy Christian camps I went to as a teenager.

Cliff College in Derbyshire and the Oakes in Sheffield.

They are both advocates of gay conversion therapy. As a gay teen it left me with not insignificant mental health issues.

I've often wondered over the years if there is anything I can do to save vulnerable teenage girls from going to these camps or a way I can expose the dodgy leaders.

Are the boys given similar talks about the appropriateness of staring at girls' breasts?

It would be a valuable discussion. There is nothing worse than some adult creep speaking to you while staring at your chesticles rather than your face.

There is an assumpton that boys and men can't help themselves. They can. They just need to be made aware of how uncomfortable they make women and girls feel. It's rude and humiliating.

Far easier to blame the girl rather than for camp leaders to tackle the real problem?

I hope people don’t get the idea from this thread that all Christians are repressive, judgmental misogynists.
My DD, as a teenager, once wore a home made purple wig of knitted dreadlocks, and a white mini skirt, to church. She was at that rebellious stage and hoping to provoke a reaction.
At the end of the service, an elderly lady approached her. DD braced, ready for the expected censure.
“I just wanted to say I love your hair. I wish I was young again!” quavered the dear soul, her smiling friends nodding their agreement.

DD was gobsmacked! Walking home, she told me in amazed tones that she was more accepted by the old dears at church than by her own teenage classmates, who rejected her as “weird”.
We attended another church years ago, where I used to teach Sunday School. On hot summer Sundays, the morbidly obese female organist used to play the organ in a vest and very short shorts, in full view of the congregation. She was a good organist and we appreciated her giving her time and skill in the service of God. None of us thought we should go and nag her about her perfectly sensible clothing choices in the hot weather.
Humans are fallible. We can get very hung up on trivial and irrelevant details of dress etc, when Jesus only gave us two simple commandments. To love God, and to love our neighbour as ourselves.
Where in that does it say “ Criticise your neighbour’s dress sense, and slut shame young women”?

I think that you're talking about 2 sides of a coin here. Yes, the feminist response will be that you are simply talking about the female body, which is hers, and therefore there is nothing sexual about it - it's just breasts, nipples, etc., and if they are exposed, men simply need to control themselves, as women are not responsible for the actions of men. That sounds great, in theory. I don't disagree, actually. I always tell my children to be their own people, and that they are responsible for their own behaviour.

However, there is a verse in the Bible that says "1 Cor8:9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak." which I think is really useful here. There is no law at all which says that girls or boys should dress modestly at Christian camps, church or anywhere. But I think it's disingenuous to pretend that breasts, nipples, and penises are just body parts and aren't sexual, when whole industries have been built around their sexuality, and they have inherent, God-given (or if you are atheistic, biologically driven) erogenous zones.

I know I'd be quite repulsed if men started to wear very skimpy shorts that exposed their genitals, and I'll never forget the episode of friends where Joey had to ask the man in the coffee house to put his mouse back in the house! It's not too different when women wear clothing that shares more of their breasts than is typical. It draw the eye, whether you're a man or a woman, and it's not necessarily a comfortable thing.

I really don't see the harm in someone telling your DD that her top is showing her nipples?

I don’t believe your daughter has distracted any boys, I think all she has done is distract the leader who took her aside and spoke to her.

I also agree that the conversation would never have happened if your daughter was without norkage. I don’t ever remember anyone ever telling any of the girls at church or youth group or camp that what they were wearing was potentially unsuitable. Our leaders were themselves blessed with vast norkage though, so maybe they weren’t as afraid of boobs as the woman who spoke to your daughter is.

I’m glad your daughter can half laugh this whole thing off. I would turn this situation into a family joke and ridicule at every possible opportunity.

I have no norkage, I only have nipples. I always wear a padded bra though because otherwise my nipples would take someone’s eye out.

Hope your daughter enjoys the rest of camp and grows even more in her faith.

I don't mind naming and shaming the dodgy Christian camps I went to as a teenager.

Yes the thread has achieved a lot in terms of putting people off Christianity and Christian Camps but we have no idea whether this particular woman's faith was what motivated her statement or whether she was simply doing exactly the same as many school sixth form pastoral staff and many many parents. Most of my friends would give this advice to their own daughters I suspect, since it is a predominant sexist idea in our culture. When I encounter these ideas I challenge them but in a way that acknowledges they are new to feminism. I wouldn't link the presence of this very dominant idea to the presence or absence of religion personally.

I had to google 'Norks', so thanks for that!

It's a summer camp so I don't think the young lady in question should be dressed for summer and not in a burka unless she wants to be, of course.
Why are the boys not being taught how to treat their opposite number? Why are they not being taught to value others for who they are?

Maybe it's time for some newer New Wine.

Tell her to strip off next time loydly declaring 'I' m not ashamed of the body God gave me.'

Inside her head obviously. She shouldn't actually do it but it will make her feel better to visualise their reactions.

Also interesting to note how many christians have jumped on here to eagerly add their blow and declare her the wrong sort of christian.

Not a Christian but my POV would vary depending on what she was actually wearing.

If she had a top with no bra, a see through top, or something really clingy then yes I'd object. If she was wearing shorts the size of panties I'd object too.

But if it was a normal outfit that fitted her properly then yanbu

TatianaLarina

I love it "well that's Christianity for you", that's just the sort of expression that will upset a lot of people.

Thanks.

Just remembered I got sent home from Christian youth club once for wearing a French connection teeshirt with FCUK on the front.

@Babdoc As an adult I certainly don't think Christians are repressive, judgmental misogynists, but I was introduced to Christianity as an impressionable young teenager at a Christian camp which was definitely repressive, judgmental and sexist.

I'm in holiday and there's a teenage girl dressed in very tight clothing and I'm really embarrassed for her. There's also a body builder guy walking around in a tight speedo with his arms out like a gorilla pose. It's ridiculous. So appropriate behaviour and clothing applies to both sexes

^Well that's Christianity for you"
Take nothing to do with any organised religion.

Maybe Christian youth camp isn't the best environment for a free spirited, confident girl who doesn't want to be tied down by gender norms?

Are these comment helpful? Are you the OP is asking for help and opinions and you're basically saying well, what do you expect?

"Well, what do you expect" has been the driving force since time began for why women should stfu.

We take these norms and we discuss why they are wrong, do people really think the Op isn't allowed to believe in god and have her daughter not be slut shamed for having nipples?

As an atheist I don't join any sceptic groups or atheist groups because they're full of misogynistic men, is that OK or not? When should we stop expecting it?

I remember my dds going on a Christian camp and not being allowed to wear bikinis in the swimming pool because of the teenage boys.

Yes. Agree it's a bit much, hope your dd is ok

I have a friend that regularly holidays at a naturist camp with his family. He assures me it’s all very staid and people soon habituate to seeing each other naked and sit around drinking cups of tea together.

I can also recall watching a documentary about Amazonian Indians in which both males and females were wearing nothing but loin clothes yet seemed to be able to go about their daily business in humdrum fashion, rather than lumbering from one opportunity for an orgy to the next (unless there was some heavy editing going on).

Judgements about clothing are down to what you are used to culturally but, whatever the society, men certainly don’t need to have womenfolk enveloped in shrouds in order to be able to contain themselves.

Re Christian camps, I’m not religious but did attend one as a teen, invited along by my best friend. There was certainly a frisson of excitement in the air on account of being away from home with the opposite sex around and that would have been the case whatever anyone was wearing. I remember being left alone in the girls’ dorm after lights out because all the proper youth fellowship girls would rush out giggling and shrieking to meet their youth fellowship boyfriends. ‘So this is what Christian camps are all about,’ I would think to myself sourly ever night, sheets pulled up under my chin, the sole atheist in the pack.

This is patriarchy in it’s most successful form - it grooms women into policing each other while the men get all the freedoms and no blame.

Floral I hope you are ready to stop denying your radfem membership now? 🤓 I think we both have to finally admit that [Bergdorf was right] and we have been through the radicalisation portal of Mumsnet!

As an aside, do you think witnessing society’s reaction to your daughter’s puberty/young womanhood has contributed to her sibling’s desire to opt out of it?
My sister is 2 and bit years older than me and as teens I often figured out what I didn’t want by watching her!

Bluntness has it, I think.

My personal view is that one of the biggest problems we face is an inability to be honest about the nature of male sexuality. You can't teach teenage boys not to be aroused by breasts. It's biology! You can teach them about appropriate behaviour and respect and consent, but that's a rather different thing.

With clothes? Absolutely - we all have the right to wear whatever we wish to, and should be able to do so without fear of abuse, attack or harassment. We should be able to do so. We should teach young boys this and expect them to respect this. We should be able to leave our windows open without fear of burglary. I should be able to leave my car keys in my car while I go into the shops. But if I do, it invalidates my insurance policy. Would you call that victim blaming?

We all choose what to wear, even if not very consciously (I didn't give much thought to the top I wore with my jeans this morning, but it was still my choice.). If you go out wearing clothes that display your secondary sexual characteristics, then - unless you are very naive in the ways of the world (which is why I hate seeing very young girls dressed in this way, because they probably are) - you know that many men will look at you in a sexual way and other women will recognise that you have made that choice. I have no problem at all with anyone choosing to do this, by the way - none whatsoever. And cat calling etc is wrong, I agree. But you cannot expect people not to look or not to notice. You are the person who has chosen those clothes. Is it purely a sexist thing? I'm not sure it is - we saw a man walking through the park in just a pair of old style swimming trunks the other day. My DD's friend was horrified as you could see most of his arse. I shrugged - his choice. But people definitely noticed and you could see a few suppressed giggles from other park goers.

The OP's DD sounds like she hasn't deliberately chosen to wear revealing clothes, but someone else thinks she has. Given it's a Christian camp and the other person is a leader, she obviously thought it was appropriate to point this out to her. I certainly wouldn't have done. In the OP's DD's shoes, I'd be seriously considering whether I wanted to stay there anymore. But the reaction was a function of the environment she was in.