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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Woman at church shamed my daughter.

278 replies

FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 22:58

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

Angry
OP posts:
waxy1 · 08/08/2018 23:01

Take nothing to do with any organised religion.

Adviceplease360 · 08/08/2018 23:05

This isn't a feminist issue. Noone should have their nipples showing or wear revealing clothes at a Christian camp. How ridiculous

ReluctantCamper · 08/08/2018 23:09

This isn't a feminist issue. Noone should have their nipples showing or wear revealing clothes at a Christian camp. How ridiculous

my nipples are fucking huge. they show up through my bra and clothes. they just do.

should I stay at home?

can you explain why being able to see the outline of some nipples is a problem?

ReluctantCamper · 08/08/2018 23:09

also, define 'revealing'

MyDcAreMarvel · 08/08/2018 23:09

What was she actually wearing , it is part of being a Christian to dress modestly. Vest tops and shorts are fine, almost see through satin top with no bra not so much.

mrswarthog · 08/08/2018 23:11

@Adviceplease360 do fuck off. As a 48 year old Christian I was unaware that bits of my god-designed body shouldn't be apparent.

Mumminmum · 08/08/2018 23:13

You should talk to the "kind" woman and rip her head off.

Sparkyduchess · 08/08/2018 23:15

That’s both shocking and all too believable. Your girl sounds lovely, and like she’s got her head screwed on but I can well imagine she’s upset and doubting herself. It pisses me off more than I can express that In this day and age girls are STILL being blamed for being ‘distracting ‘.

FWIW, DS’s girlfriend is visiting for the first time and she’s just ‘normal ‘ - not thin, not fat, wearing clothes she likes. I’ve thought several times how lovely that is, and wished I could go back in time and shake my teenage self because she’s perfect just as she is.

This isn’t down to religion, it’s just shaming a very young woman who has no shame to bear.

Slipping ‘nipples’ into conversation sounds like a plan, the more she can take the piss out of it, the less power it has to trouble her.

haribosmarties · 08/08/2018 23:16

Its a shame girls get talked to like this because it isnt about what they wear. Its about their bodies. I take it your daughter was dressed in a normal manner its just that she has a large chest etc
I have always been very flat chested so I see this ridiculousness in action as I was never spoken to about my clothing as a teen when girls wearing pretty much exactly the same thing were.
Its just very unfair. Curvy girls cant help that society thinks their curves are 'sexy' I mean if youve got large breasts thats not deliberate provocation... you arent trying to be sexy... thats just your body! No girl should be made to feel she has to dress differently to keep her body extra hidden because its extra womanly.

NynaeveSedai · 08/08/2018 23:18

Maybe Christian youth camp isn't the best environment for a free spirited, confident girl who doesn't want to be tied down by gender norms?

PixelAteMe · 08/08/2018 23:28

Teenage boys like to look at teenage girls, and if there’s an outline of nipple visible, they will look a bit closer. That is their choice.

Teenage girls sometimes have prominent nipples that show through their bra and top, even if they wear a T-shirt bra. This is something they cannot help, it is not their choice.

Rebecca36 · 08/08/2018 23:31

You can't always help your nipples showing, how ridiculous. Nipples are a normal part of the body - boys have them too!

If she was my daughter I would not want her going to a camp like that again. Get her to find something else to do.

Original poster
FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 23:33

It's entirely her choice to be at the camp. Her faith is important to her. She was not dressed 'immodestly', she was dressed in regular, normal, everyday summer clothes.

She is not responsible for distracting boys who shouldn't be staring at her breasts to see if they can spot a hint of nipple anyway. Whose standards of modesty are we accepting here as Christians, just so I'm clear. Is the ankle acceptable? Knee length a bit of a question? Thighs veering into dangerous territory? Girls with chests bigger than a B cup in turtle necks in 28 degree heat?

OP posts:
TatianaLarina · 08/08/2018 23:34

Well that’s Christianity for you.

blacksax · 08/08/2018 23:37

it is part of being a Christian to dress modestly
Says who?

NK493efc93X1277dd3d6d4 · 08/08/2018 23:37

Are you absolutely certain that her clothes were appropriate for this Christian youth camp?
By your anger, I suspect that you place her right to wear whatever she likes above the expectations/norms of the group she was with.
Perhaps she has outgrown this group.

Melanippe · 08/08/2018 23:38

This is utterly ridiculous. I have helped to run Christian youth camps of the kind your daughter might be on and had I heard any of my female leaders say anything of the sort to one of the members, I'd have gone spare at them. This is enormously wrong of them. It might be worth talking to the camp leader, by email if you have that information because there really is no excuse at all for this kind of blamey bollocks, especially within a youth framework. You could mention things such as the ChurchToo hashtag which is constant on Twitter, and is exacerbated by this kind of shaming bullshit, placing girls and women at a material disadvantage to their potential attackers even before anything happens.

Userplusnumbers · 08/08/2018 23:38

This isn't a feminist issue. Noone should have their nipples showing or wear revealing clothes at a Christian camp. How ridiculous

Presumably this extends to the boys too? For instance, when swimming?

donquixotedelamancha · 08/08/2018 23:39

it is part of being a Christian to dress modestly

Nope. It's part of being a socially conservative Brit. That may correlate quite highly with being an evangelical Christian, but they are in no way the same thing.

@OP. I would suggest telling your daughter to speak to the woman giving sartorial advice and explain that she's prayed for her to be able to resist these thoughts she's having about your daughter's body. Best to be clear that she's not going to alter her dress just because of this woman's impure thoughts, but she's still sympathetic.

Well that’s Christianity for you.

No it's not, although granted its a common view in a certain type of Christianity, that narrow minded labelling of people is common in the UK. Your post is a fab example.

SheCameFromGreeceSheHadaThirst · 08/08/2018 23:41

and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part

Well, I for one am utterly shocked that a Christian indoctrination camp would be promoting the view that women, with their shameful bodies, are temptresses who lure poor men, and concomitantly humanity as a whole, to their downfall, unleashing sin and evil in their wake.

Tell her to buy a big bag of apples and go around offering them up willy-nilly, like the evil strumpet she so clearly is. That'll shit them right up.

donquixotedelamancha · 08/08/2018 23:42

Whilst I think it would be far more fun to wind this woman up :-) I suppose I should listen to the sensible voice in my head and point out that this is the correct course:

It might be worth talking to the camp leader, by email if you have that information because there really is no excuse at all for this kind of blamey bollocks, especially within a youth framework.

We really shouldn't let people get away with this shit and it's entirely possible to squish it quietly and politely without a big drama.

Original poster
FloralBunting · 08/08/2018 23:46

I suggested that she tell the woman thanks, and the next time she's tempted to give a talk in church in red nipple tassels and sequinned chaps, she'll bear the advice in mind.

Damn right this is a feminist issue, and exactly why sexism has such a strong foothold, because it's totally propped up by females like this who reinforce the shame. When I think of the lengths I've gone to, to make sure my daughters are happy to be themselves, and how much I am hemmed in on all sides with endless bullshit, from the church, from the secular world, I just spit feathers.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 08/08/2018 23:52

Rather unChristian behavior for a self proclaimed Christian in my opinion.
Gossiping about a girls physical development and then personally shaming and blaming her for it! Shocking.

Melanippe · 08/08/2018 23:54

I suggested that she tell the woman thanks, and the next time she's tempted to give a talk in church in red nipple tassels and sequinned chaps, she'll bear the advice in mind

Well, there goes my evening cocoa.

KitchenDancefloor · 08/08/2018 23:56

Hello. Fellow Christian feminist here 👋

My church has done a brilliant job at building my tween DDs confidence in being herself (she knows her own mind and doesn't dress like her peers). She is consistently told that she is loved for who she is, not what she wears.

I too would be livid if that was contradicted once she develops a more womanly figure. I agree that conservative British attitudes and Christianity are often conflated. Hopefully your DD can shrug this off and you can raise it with her youth leader in a constructive way.