Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

and the girls can be rather attention seeking and Too focused on their outer appeal to the opposite sex

Ahhh my eyes. Please tell me that post is a spoof?

Why not take the boys aside and teach them to not get distracted by boobs ffs! Surely it's not very Christian to stare at someone's boobs! Your dd should absolutely not be shamed for her body. If she really was dressed innappropriatly (I.e.clothes that were impractical the activities not shorts) then they could have had a quiet word with her in a non-judgmental way not the victim blaming bullshit they came out with, attracting the wrong kind of attention is not clothes not being suitable.

Teta another one who doesn't understand what's wrong with a teenage girl in a vest top? She will always get attention from people no matter what she's wearing. The onus was entirely on the old men to stop perving on a child.

I really hope that the "ah but maybe she really is a brazenly dressed strumpet" comment arean't coming from feminists. Sad that they are coming from other women, which I think was the OPs point.

Why not take the boys aside and teach them to not get distracted by boobs ffs!

Half the people in the world either have boobs or will have at some point in the future, so the precious little darlings are going to have to get used to managing their own responses to that fact sooner or later. Sooner would be better.

Floral thanks for your thoughtful reply. Yes I agree with you, I feel it wasn’t handled in a sensible way towards your daughter. She has the right to grow spiritually without having the main focus be on her outer appeal as if it’s the priority. Which is why I feel it is best to advise the camp to apply a blanket rule. I feel like arguing about how your daughter should dress whatever way she pleases will reap no benefits.

I think I managed to completely sympathise and see it from your side and I do feel like the camp needs to change it’s ways..but I feel like the lack of good communication has a lot to do with how there is a great social divide between those that follow traditional scriptures and those that follow a secular movement - about the topic of female empowerment. The lack of

Power is when someone’s personality is serving their goals and purpose. To me. People have different personalities and different religious or non religious interpretations of their goals/purpose. So we can’t all have the same tool towards empowerment. Accepting plurality is important.

Some people believe money brings power and some don’t. I feel your interpretation of feminism and your daughters should be respected just as much as an organised camps religious interpretation of it... this would solve s huge problem.. and that they they need to communicate it better to give you the “choice” and free will....

I do feel like meeting half way with people you disagree with is a kind approach and leads to better change in the world . No one is telling you compromise your values but don’t demonise the values of those on a different path to you.

donquix no sorry hon for this reality check, but opinions like mine do exist. I did refer to teenage girls specifically like I did to boys. Sorry to be real and not all flowery. But please don’t take my words out of context to prove non existent points.

See me as the devil or whatever you may, but reality is, “policing” other women about how to empower themselves is a feminist argument shooting itself in the foot. Doesn’t make you any better than the people you complain about.

Female empowerment is an individual journey for each individual. And it’s a group journey for organised groups. Makes sense that different interpretations of Christianity would have different interpretations of individual journeys to spiritual empowerment.

Or so I think.

Sorry that was meant to say *

“ the lack of open communication between the different views on female empowerment is what’s causing this awkward abrupt inappropriate tackling of differences ... from both sides.. it’s because each movement undermined the validity of the opinion of the other and never want to grow any understanding. in my view’’.

Also was meant to say “ some people think money is a way to empowerment. Some don’t. Some people think your interpretation of feminism bring empowerment and some don’t. But an all inclusive camp should be able to educate itself about the views of people joining it and be able to respect those views regardless of the differences.

You are confused. Female empowerment is a marketing device selling the illusion of the thing instead of the thing itself; power.

**Bewilderness..

Yes true.

“Power is when your personality serves your purpose”.

I beg your pardon, should not put a gender to power indeed.

But what I meant was, us females trying to support each other in this power movement should also acknowledge some plurality in the way we support each other.

I'm so sorry that your dd had to deal with that crap FloralBunting
As someone who came to the church as an adult, and who has a more-developed-than-her-peers teen dd, I have zero tolerance of this kind of ungraceful garbage. Ffs, they should be thrilled to have teens to minister to, that is a fucking privilege.
My friend and I have both seen this weird churchianity bubble where people must conform or be othered. I find it very unchristlike. In fact, I'd say the obsession focus on modesty is distinctly unmodest, some of the most hyper modesty, mennonite-like folks I know spend way more time and energy worrying about their appearance, and they certainly draw more attention!

The tart police are on patrol! Unfortunately lots of women are like this, I think we instinctively try to tear down the competition, it really has to stop.
Tell your daughter to keep dressing the way she likes, and if she is spoken to like that again to say, this is the body god gave me, isn't it fantastic, it's hot and I'm not going to cover up because you want me to take responsibility for others.

I left Christianity for many reasons, and this creepy, misogynistic focus on women’s bodies and sexuality was one of them. OP, please talk to the camp leader about this. I would directly tell them that you feel their issue is not with your daughter’s clothes, but with her large breasts, and that their discussing it amongst themselves and with her is grossly inappropriate. I would also ask what they are doing about these boys who are supposedly distracted by your DD.

When did hiding the existence of female nipples become a thing? I’m middle aged and I never once worried about the shape of my nipple being detectable through my clothing. Even my
conservative religious mother never brought it up.

I can't understand what you actually mean ilovehumanity.

Ferntwist my teenage son is on holiday at the moment and frequently shows 'flashes of nipple' in fact his entire chest is on display for large periods of time. And he is wearing short shorts. Because it's hot. Thinking of clothes as 'revealing' is judgmental of the intent behind wearing them. They are just clothes. I thought we had moved beyond girls being constantly harassed for 'creating' occasions of sin by the crime of existing in proximity to males.

Email the leader and ask why you and your dd were not told of the dress code before the camp. Ask for a copy and also ask if there is one for boys.

My feminist hackles are on the ceiling.

Complain loud and long and don't let it rest.

As for so-called Christians banging on about "modest dress". This is the UK and the mainstream church not some weirdo American evangelical nonsense designed to put women back in their boxes.

Lalli is correct in a way, of course.

Jesus didn’t care (or didn’t mention it anyway) about homosexuality, women getting ideas above the station or a whole variety of other issues. Jesus was happy to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors and lepers.

Honestly though, and pardon the pun, but it would be a cold day in hell before my teenage dd had gone to a Christian camp.

Presumably op is a christian as are the whole family, and if you werent concerned about her dress then no one else should have reason to be concerned.
upset for your dd that she was put in this position

Now given that this is a youth camp, the boys are still at the beginning of their journey of learning how to behave appropriately and their hormones are peaking

Mother of teenage boys here. If I saw them behaving inappropriately I’d be livid. Ds2 (16) does a lot of dance with girls wearing stuff that would make the camp leader’s eyes bleed and manages to control his teenage hormones and behave appropriately and respectfully.

I think you just ran up against one of ‘those’ Christians (self righteous, self important middle class conservatives who don’t seem to understand what Jesus preached). The church attracts them (although of course you get them elsewhere and also find perfectly pleasant members of congregations.) I think it’s time to teach that it’s fine to value some opinions over others and ignore some people if you don’t agree with them.

Well, it's well known that curvier women can wear the same outfit as a thin woman and be told that they're dressing ''sexy''. There have been threads about it on s&b

I think the woman doesn't realise that she's the one who doesn't GET this.
Sad fact is if your DD ever works for ACcenture or somewhere like that she could be wearing THE EXACT same shirt as her colleagues and get told this again.

It isn't nice that it started at summer camp. My DD wants a breast reduction so when the OP said that her DD's breasts were large, I thought, ah, I get it.

Ugh I had this when I worked on camp the first year way back when (I think maybe 2003?). It wasn’t a religious camp and there were no boys there, so it was all a bit ridiculous. Was in the US but not a super conservative state- far from it.

The worst thing is that they used an example of an (incredibly annoying) girl who was “appropriately dressed” and was wearing the same as me (mid-thigh shorts, vest top with substantial strap, not spaghetti strap, bra of same colour as best top so though you COULD see straps you had to look hard) but had teeny tiny boobs. And they couldn’t see the problem in the comparison...

I felt shit though about the whole thing so I feel for your daughter.

Well, it's well known that curvier women can wear the same outfit as a thin woman and be told that they're dressing ''sexy''. There have been threads about it on s&b

Cross post, but yes absolutely.

First mistake - getting involved with any religion - can’t they go to normal camps. Are they being fed all the religious nonsense as well?

Floral, I'm so sorry this happened to you daughter, absolutely do complain and don't let it rest!

I would also very much ignore the misogynistic drivel from ILoveHumanity upthread. I know it's not the done thing, but here are a few gems she's come out with on another thread that show exactly the medieval school of thought she subscribes to:

'I have found that the Islamic/old version Christianity encouragement of covering ones beauty to be the most empowering feminist thing in my teenage years and twenties. It shapes my identity. Made me feel like I’m worth more than my looks .

I used to feel noticed for my looks and that obscured my perception of myself, and so I increased my covering, removed my make up, became stricter... and ultimately felt closer to god as I felt I was attaching my self worth to him and hit to men’s opinions .

(...)

I almost certainly feel teenagers and young ladies have very little self worth and it is all attached to their looks...'

Are they being fed all the religious nonsense as well?

OP has said that her daughter’s faith is very important to her.

Anyway, I’ve had the same thing in secular childcare settings. The only common denominator in my experience is my massive boobs and the telling off coming from a much older woman under the guise of being helpful.