Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

My observation would be that if the woman harassing OPs daughter didn't feel the need to inquire into whether or not the fabric of her top was a blend for religious reasons then she didn't actually need to initiate a discussion with her about nipple coverage for religious reasons either.

The religion is being used as an excuse for taking concerns about the potential behavior of the boys and making them a problem for the girls to solve.

"Well endowed in norkage" 😂😂😂

OP I'd be furious too - teenage girls need their confidence boosting not destroying. I'm not particularly religious myself but having had a daughter who was a chorister for ten years have had plenty of involvement through the formative years and have never heard any of this nonsense. It has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with the women themselves. Unfortunately it causes girls to become very self conscious.

I have a friend, normally a very outspoken Australian who takes shit from no one. However she is very self conscious about her generous boobage. On a holiday flight she was sat awaiting take off wearing a t shirt and with a jacket she had been wearing as a cover up on her lap. The flight attendant doing seatbelt checks told her to put her jacket in the overhead locker. Aware of a group of loud guys behind her my friend did not want to stand up and reach up to the locker so she told the flight attendant to do it..(Probably she should have asked in a more tactful way but that's beside the point) The flight attendant bristled and said it wasn't her job. An argument ensued. Friend's friend eventually jumped up and told them both off before doing it herself. All funny in retrospect but that's where this sort of body shaming heads!

Of course it’s a feminist issue, and on a practical note, I would absolutely complain about this woman and her dreadful attitude.

Bigger picture, though? I personally wouldn’t be entrusting the care or guidance of my teenage daughter to a religious organisation, seeing as they’re not exactly known for championing feminism - quite the opposite in fact.

I suggest she wears her favourite bikini tomorrow!

Teen church camps are hell for girls. Been there, done that. Wardrobe reprimands were frequent. I was pulled aside for talking to a boy because “you know he likes you so you shouldn’t tempt him.” For TALKING!!! Incredible. The girls were made to wear t-shirts over swimsuits even one pieces. Boys could swim in shorts no shirt. I avoided the pool as a result.

Sorry for your daughter but it’s par for the course.

I've read this and feel slightly shocked, and without wishing to sound disrespectful, it's not really a Christian thing/ problem, it's a person problem. The ladies taking a youth group away aren't really geared up to do so. Provided the young people in their care are dressed so they can access all the planned activities I don't see it's a point of discussion at all, eg if they were going surfing, they might need a rash vest/ wetsuit, not just a costume/ bikini? But that's advice, not essential!
As for the whole nipple thing, it sounds like these ladies would struggle with breastfeeding mums, yet I've always found church playgroups the most welcoming and least shockable by my babies needs/ wants. I really do think you should raise this with your church leadership, as at best they need some updating, and in light of all the Weinstein revelations, you would think it's a good time to educate.

ladies

Love it!

Could you send this link to your DD, or at least the good advice within it? It includes Sarah Silvermans 'Rape prevention tips/, aimed at teaching men how not to rape. PErhaps it could be passed on to the boys who cannot help but be distracted b your DDs norkage!

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11489536/Sarah-Silverman-rape-prevention-tips-go-viral.-Upset-men.html

What a load of twaddle. Your poor DD - as a formerly large busted teen who was far too frequently body shamed when wearing the same as small boobed friends - I'd have been devastated. If DD's happy, I'd suggest speaking to the minister leading. I can't remember what title they go by - but I have friends in that role over the next few weeks and I think they'd be incensed that someone was singled out like this.

Someone else on here mentioned that it's a privilege to have teens to minister, and learn with. I honestly don't care what they wear. Also their roles in our church families are so important. Oh I'm cross on your DD's behalf.

University Challenge episode 3. Pembroke college took a hammering but all the attention was on their absolutely gorgeous captain Katherine Perry (studying theology) and her fab cleavage. She came across as so warm and all round lovely person. Sadly twitter hashtag was a disgrace.

I'm on the fence a little on this one.

The reason is, we haven't seen your daughter we can only go by your description, and by your description she doesn't wear overly revealing or ill fitting clothes, so as such the woman is nuts and out of line. Even if your daughter did dress in the manner she describes and not the manner you describe it's still not her place to comment.

However being the mother of a 21 year old daughter I full remember by daughters friends at 17 and yes some of them dressed in a way that wasn't great, their choice, but still short shorts with ass cheeks hanging out, low cut short crop tops etc. I was more amused and raised the occasional eyebrow.

And as much as I believe every one can dress as they please, Male or female. I do also think it's incumbent on us to teach our kids, Male or female again, to respect themselves and their bodies and what is or is not appropriate dress for a given occasion, it helps them in later life.if they make informed choices and still choose the short shorts that's fine.

I also don't think it's for anyone else to comment. But not commenting doesn't change what people are thinking. And like it or not, folks judge and they do think it. You can't change that.

So as much as this woman was out of line, and from your description there was nothing to comment on on your daughters attire, she's simply taken against your kid and nuts, I'd simply reflect on does she Have a point and was she simply saying what others are thinking.

None of us really know the answer to that.

"Actually she was holding ONE sex (or actually one person, female as usual) responsible for reducing sexual exposure, that is the crux of what is so wrong."

Well, we don't know that she hasn't talked to boys about trousers that fall down or something like that. Straight males tend not to dress in sexually provocative ways in general anyway.

1 Timothy ch2 v 9 says

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.

That's of course, if you take the bible literally.

Bluntness , totally agree.

What's "sexually provocative"? I find (fit, toned) male torsos very sexually appealing, and most water based recreational activities involve those being fully exposed, but nobody ever suggests that men engaged in those activities put on a baggy shirt in order to avoid giving women the fanny gallops.

This isn't only a feminist issue its a bitchy gossip issue. Who does this woman think she is? In your shoes I'd have spoken to her about bodyshaming my DD already

Says it all re warped attitudes towards youth, beauty and the feminine figure and envy. A 'bit too developed' is clearly not on then.

Perhaps your DD should strap down her breasts and not dare to wear floaty comfortable tops in the heat🙄

When people pulled this bollocks on me as a teenager I always wanted to come back with "gosh, I'm so sorry, I'd have avoided going through puberty if I'd known it was going to inconvenience other people so much".

Firstly I’m not surprised, what do you expect from a Christian summer camp. However, I think I know the Christian summer camp you mean. If it’s in the SW, apparently all the teens there just get drunk and have sex. The whole thing is very creepy.

It sounds like you are a bit naive about these groups and their values if you find this shocking. They will teach your child:

-modesty (yes, body shaming)
-sex before marriage is a sin
-heavy physical contact before marriage is shameful (so your child will be made to feel ashamed of normal sex drive and sexual development)
-homosexuality is a sin (might be tolerated as long as gay people don’t have sex)
-hell is real and anyone who hasn’t accepted Christ is going to burn in hell for eternity
-women should submit to men

The evangelical christians create a very confusing impression as they make church fun, target young people, have great music, etc, but beneath it all hold firm to some horrible, misogynistic values.

Run a mile!

As a Christian (occasional visitor) and with teen dds I get where you are coming from but think the other leaders are probably right.

Dressing 'modestly' is a Christian 'thing' for women. I don't allow my girls to have bare legs or shoulders in church because lots of people will tut and think it's wrong. You aren't allowed in lots of churches abroad with legs/shoulders, so it's definitely not just British!

I disagree with this point of view but our generation is probably the first in 2000 years of Christian tradition to feel that way, so I think we have to respect that.

Its really understanding the "corporate culture" of the church which means a certain professional dress code has to be adhered to.

Also, the girl I know who went to this particular camp (SW England) said that there were some older men leading the ‘workshops’ who she would have described as sexual predators. So you have

Teens without parents drinking largely unsupervised.
Adults with access to teens whose motives may be questionable
Lots of drunken sex going on between teens.

Recipe for disaster. Maybe this woman is concerned that your dd could end up a target for abuse?

And of course the Christin way would be t blame the potential victim, not the predator. In that way it is a feminist issue.

It’s outrageous behaviour from the leaders. God created their beautiful young bodies and they have a right to be confident and proud of them my eldest went to a school fancy dress day as a belly dancer and another time as Eve. It was a church school, she got an offer of a cardigan if she was cold but also won first prize.
My other daughter went to Lourde as a volunteer where there was a ridiculously strict dress code/ uniform. She knew this before she went and chose to go nevertheless. Her choice.
The Catholic and CoffE church does not require modesty per se. That is imposed from misguided and misogynistic leaders who know no better. Modesty is about behaviour not dress anyway.

Hmm, I think there's a bit of blanket generalisation there. I've known and been friends with a great many evangelical Christians. Some of them (the ones who mistake ignorance for innocence) do indeed end up very screwed up about sex. Others (usually the ones who are honest about sex drives and take the view that sex is a great thing in the right circumstances, while acknowledging the strength of one's sex drive) seem to come out of it eventually as very happily married people with healthy sex drives. Though I would concede that there are quite a few who end up damaged, and (because of the emphasis on early marriage as the only acceptable way to deal with a strong sex-drive) some who end up in the wrong marriage for them, with great difficulty in coping psychologically with the prospect of divorce.

(I don't think there's any way of living healthily within evangelical Christianity if you are gay, however. There may be a few individuals who manage to attain some sort of psychological peace despite having chosen to be celibate because they put their religious beliefs first, but I think they'll be very rare individuals indeed.)

I think like any other moral framework, it can be used well if you already have the good fortune to have a sensible, balanced outlook on life, and badly if you have an outlook which is a bit messed up (whether through a tendency to authoritarian "rules is rules" without ever stopping to think about the underlying reasons for the rules, messed up personal boundaries, guilt, shame etc.)

It's not just Christianity which can be a good foundation for morality or a totally messed up travesty of morality. I suspect, for instance, "sex-positive feminism" also runs the risk of damaging people. There will be liberal feminists who have their heads screwed on right, who're lucky to have grown up in family backgrounds which have left them with a secure sense of their own boundaries, who are able to use "sex positive feminism" as a framework to enjoy their sexuality without guilt. There will also be women coming to "sex positive feminism" with personal boundaries which have been damaged, who are vulnerable to damaging messages like "try this sexual act you don't want, just the once, or else you are kink-shaming your (usually male) partner..."

That's a bit rambling, but I guess I'm trying to say any moral framework can go wrong if applied unthinkingly.