Woman at church shamed my daughter.

[FloralBunting]

Some of my kids are away at a Christian youth camp. One of my daughters is an older teen, involved in junior leadership.

One of the women leaders has taken her to one side and given her some 'advice' about the way she dresses. My daughter is well endowed in norkage, and frankly, delightfully unfussed about wobbly bits in other places. She's not fat, she's not thin, she's just a normal teen girl. She's more than happy in her own skin, and enjoys clothes. She has been wearing shorts this week, and all manner of floaty blouses and strappy tops, because she's been camping, it's hot, and she was comfortable.

I'm angry at having to describe how she dresses, because it shouldn't be bloody relevant, but it's necessary to underline that she is just a regular teenager.

This woman took her to one side, having already discussed it with another female leader, and told her that what she wears is too revealing, shows off her nipples and distracts the boys and will bring her 'the wrong kind of attention'.

She phoned me up, half laughing at the absurdity, but also clearly quite upset. I am livid. We came out of an environment where clothes were exceedingly conservative, because I wanted my girls to stay well away from that kind of restriction, and my DP and kids go to a really run of the mill CofE now.

My daughter spoke to my DP about it and he made it clear that if boys are finding her distracting they need to sort themselves out, which I'm pleased about, but I am absolutely horrified that at least two of the female leaders thinks it's appropriate to shame my daughter for looking like a normal teenaged girl, and dare to suggest this is some kind of bad behaviour on her part.

I've emphasized that this kind of nonsense is sadly a conservative evangelical thing, and that she must let it roll off like the sexist crap it is, but it's so galling that it's women doing this kind of policing.

I told her to try and slip 'nipples' into the conversation on the minibus home.

FermatsTheorem it’s not evangelicals Christians in general but specifically youth group Lee added. My mother stuck us in these camps as a committed Christian she thought it was best for us. She volunteered one summer after I’d gone to uni and she was shocked at the way things we run. Regular church had nothing on teen Bible camp.

Hello - I have a lovely 17YO DD who's smart and likes to wear very very short skirts. We went out for dinner the other night as a family. While we were walking back to our car I said to DD "that skirts very short you know" ....5 secs later a group of lads in a car screamed round the corner past us, unwound the window, eyeballed DD up and down and said "y'all right love" .....,..I suspect if we'd not all been there, the cat call would've been a lot fruitier. Point proven.
I'm sorry but it's not fair, it's not right but revealing clothes can indeed attract the wrong kind of attention. They've got to learn this. They can still look gorgeous and fashionable but not show off boobs and likes up to the knickers. I think as a liberal minded mum, girls do need guidance on this. Don't tell off the woman at the Christian camp imo.

I went to an innocuous looking Christian camp as a teenager.

The leaders used to initiate discussions such as 'are HIV and AIDS God's punishment to gay men?' And 'Should women who are raped be allowed an abortion as it's God's will the baby was conceived?'. Misogyny and homophobia was rife and it gave me a skewed perception of the world.

At age 15 I lost my virginity to one of the leaders (early 20s). Hypocrisy was rife.

My parents thought I was praying, reading the bible and learning about being kind.

I would never, ever in a million years send my DD to Christian camp. Sorry to say it but the clothes shaming may be the least of your worries.

There was a thread on here a few days ago about mother’s being inappropriately dressed at playgroup and her child commenting you could see her bum. I was shocked how many people agreed with her.

It’s not a Christian thing about her dressing but a social construct.

Gosh when I look back to what I wore as a teenager to church, knee high boots with short skirts etc and no one battered an eye.

I would be sending a scathing email to the child protection officer and the church leadership team. This is absolutely not acceptable.

Why not take the boys aside and teach them to not get distracted by boobs ffs!

This. I would ask the camp leaders what they are doing to educate the boys on the camp to be respectful of girls and not make them feel uncomfortable about or ashamed of their newly developing bodies.

Tinko I think from OP's posts the issue is that these were not clothes intended to look sexy (and even with such clothes why aren't we still trying to tell men that the point of such clothes is never to indicate that you're therefore "available to all comers"?), the issue is that these were just everyday clothes you'd wear on a hot day - shorts and singlet or floaty blouse, with bra underneath - which the woman at the camp chose to interpret as sexualised simply because OP's daughter happens to have big norks. If OP's daughter had been relatively flat chested, no-one would have batted an eyelid.

God, too many double negatives.

We shouldn't be shaming women for what they wear.

We should be saying:
Men: when a woman chooses to wear clothes you happen think are sexy, that's your interpretation of the situation, not objective truth. So keep that thought inside your head. Don't use it as an excuse to cat call her or physically assault her.

And the message received therefore is "it's wicked of you to have big norks, and if boys/men harass you it's your fault for having them". Which we shouldn't be teaching girls.

I had a terrible time at school, was constantly called a "slag" and a "tart" despite being one of the few girls to wear a long skirt instead of a thigh-skimming one and despite the fact that I never ever even so much as kissed a boy from school.

My crime was having big tits.

My mum, also over-blessed in the tittage department, came into school and was told that it was my fault for "flaunting" myself. DM pointed out that I was wearing a blouse and a cardigan - ie school uniform - and asked what the hell I was supposed to wear. No answer was forthcoming.

It breaks my heart that young women are still being blamed for inhabiting their own bodies almost 30 years later.

jasminemaya

Yup yup. The parents think we’re just doing an extended church service. We were told all our classmates and teachers were going to hell unless we 14 year olds saved them through the gospel.

My brother said in the boys cabins they were lectured multiple times a day on the evils of masturbation.

Things we never ever heard at regular church.

Who's running these camps, and is there no oversight from the regular church authorities? It sounds very much like American evangelical bollocks is being sneakily imported and aimed at children as the more malleable audience.

I dont undestand why people seem to want to "chose" what is right or wrong in a religion and follow what they want
Like it or not being "christian" comes with dressing modestly wether you like it or not

The thing is you can't change what's in people's heads, and people do judge as a society a woman who wears overly revealing clothes. Just as we judge a man in overly tight trousers or shorts, speedos, a wife beater vest, or Jesus sandals and socks.

Everyone has the right to dress as they please, but people judge how other people present themselves.

The ops daughter is clearly not in this boat from what she describes, and as said, we haven't seen her, and there may well be an element of this is a Christian camp, so the leaders are slightly more ehrm, judgemental.

So I don't think it's as simple as teach boys not to be distracted by boobs, we need to teach our children to treat both themselves and others with respect. And yes that includes understanding the impacts of how we chose to present ourselves, as well as fighting the even bigger battle of teaching our children not to judge based on how someone dresses and presents themselves.

And the reason I say even bigger battle, is because usually the parents also judge, so it's hard for them to accept they are wrong, and teach their kids otherwise.

Sure you see it on here often. Women starting threads about how other women dress, about how men dress, fashion choices lampooned etc. There was even one a few weeks back from someone complaining the females at a grad ceremony were dressed in revealing clothes.

Trying to change everyone else is a long slow process, but giving our kids understanding of society at large whilst teaching them how to behave is important.

I believe she wasn’t shaming or blaming she clearly was shaming and blaming. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.

You certainly won't change what's in people's heads by choosing not to confront them when they express sexist, archaic views.

The OP has stated multiple times that her daughter was not wearing "revealing" clothes, and yet some people keep circling back to the idea that what the daughter was wearing is the problem that needs to be addressed. Which is, well, revealing.

Since when has it been a part of being Christian to dress modestly.

You certainly won't change what's in people's heads by choosing not to confront them when they express sexist, archaic views

Of course. But how many people do this in real life? Because they themselves hold the same view and they don't perceive themselves to be wrong. It's endemic in society.

As said you see it on here all the time, take the love Island thread, the comments on Megan meeting wes's parents in a thong, the threads on men in small speedos. There's even an avalanche of threads about what Megan Markle chooses to wear, how she even stands. Name a female celeb and there is probably a thread critiscing how she dresses. Plenty of people would be aghast if their son brought their girlfriend home and she was wearing short shorts, with half her bum cheeks out, and a low cut transparent crop top. Too few would say "good for her, I admire her confidence in wearing what she wants".

As much as we should all take a stand, and call out poor behaviour when she see it, we would be naive to not accept this is an enormous battle and it's on both genders, it's not just women who are judged. Men are also.

Really sorry this happened to your daughter floral

Dd is 16 and has had to rethink her clothes on a few day trips we've done...but tha was because she was wearing a skirt to do something active rather than shorts!!

Although she doesnt have really big boobs she is another one who will ALWAYS wear a bra as she is really self conscious about her nipples

Really horrible, and although the women talking to her probably wasnt coming from a bad place....she sure as hell ended up in one!!!!

Actually I disagree. Revealing clothes is not ok at Christian camp.

We all rate revealing clothes differently. I had a very interesting discussion with a group of school mums recently. We were out drinking, and discussing a group of school girls at the local fayre and of the 10 mums we all rated the revealing-ness of their outfits totally differently. And some of our most shy mums and most catholic, were most extreme in their scoring. Interesting.

Bluntness

I agree to some extent but there is a level of shame directed at women by these church groups, who are activing in postions of authority and behaving as though they have the Truth. It’s not the same as the examples you have cited. This church leader commenting on dress is just a symptom of it. We certainly should push back and call it iut for what it is. I’m grateful to the OP for posting this thread.

(I used to be a very active member of a church group so I am speaking from personally experience)

What you consider revealing, others might not. Even I am shocked at the revealing-ness of some of the outfits mums wear to school pick up.

Of course it's an enormous battle. Not confronting people who're actively reinforcing negative ideas does not help. Shaming girls for having bodies that other people find sexy does not help, nor does refusing to acknowledge when that's what's happening and it's not really about the clothes at all.

You're dodging the point that the OP was making, which is that no, it's not in any way equal in terms of the pressure put on girls and women versus the pressure put on boys and men.

My colleagues daughter has gone to a Muslim educational summer school in another country. The (strict) dress code there was extremely clear in advance.

I think it's fine for any group that's looking after teenagers to decide they want a dress code provided it is a) clearly publicised in advance, b) applies to both sexes - so that neither boys nor girls shouldn be allowed to wear low-slung jeans and skimpy T-shirts/vest tops, c) the clothing is practical for the activities.

I think it is testing for a young person with faith if women who are supposed to be helping them to grow spiritually behave in a way that is undermining. Perhaps it is not the right group? I'd certainly want to be exploring my concerns with the leaders...

Jasmine, did you ever see any of the reports on the American church group that polled boys on what girls did that "caused them to stumble"? I remember that one of the things the boys complained about was bags with crossbody straps, which apparently draw the attention of the boys to the fact that the girls have breasts.

When complaints like that are taken seriously and girls are urged to consider the impact that their choice of bag might have on men's feelings that is in no way reasonable, and every feminist should be concerned about what being in an environment in which that's treated as if it is reasonable is doing to the girls involved (and the sense of entitlement to have their feelings centered at all times it's reinforcing in the boys, and the lessons it's teaching them about girls being responsible for bad behavior from boys).

I agree to some extent but there is a level of shame directed at women by these church groups

I'd assume you were right, I've never been to one, but from what you see in the media I'd expect them to be rather puritanical in the way they expect kids to dress. I'm not religious so I don't understand rhe attraction of these evangelical groups, but I wouldn't expect them to be tolerant.

You're dodging the point that the OP was making, which is that no, it's not in any way equal in terms of the pressure put on girls and women versus the pressure put on boys and men

Not dodging it, no, I full agree women are judged more commonly for how they dress, particularly if it's perceived as revealing. As said, you see it on here all the time. And that doesn't seem to be about religion either, and is very often women on women.