People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

OH I didn't mean the surgery thing, thats clearly batshit. I meant the rest of it, the stalking, the death threats and such.

It's like responding to stats that show that most family annihilation is committed by men with "but Lizzie Borden!"

Especially when all the evidence points to the fact that male patterns of offending are the same in the trans community.

By "all the evidence" do you mean "that single Swedish study whose author does not think it means what you think it means"?

To the people asking about female violence against transwomen....wasn't there a big case a few years back where a trans woman was badly beaten in McDonald's?

Maybe it is this:
transcrimeuk.com/

UptonSnodbury

I remember that! They were assaulted in the rest room, they say, after arguing with a woman for coming on to the woman's boyfriend.
Naught to do with trans so much as jealousy.

The victim, Chrissy Lee Polis, was 22 at the time of the attack. Polis, then a resident of Baltimore, said that she was going to use a restroom, when a female individual spat in her face. Then she and another female person started attacking Polis. A McDonald's employee filmed the beating and the attempts of another employee and a customer to intervene in the attack. Other McDonald's employees in the video are heard to be laughing.

The beating lasted for several minutes. Weijia Jiang ofCBS Baltimoresaid, "Then after a powerful blow to the head, the victim appears to have a violent seizure, and as she bleeds from the mouth, spectators warn the attackers to flee before cops arrive. Polis said that she believed she was attacked because she was transgender.

So the perp says it was over the BF but the victim says it was a hate crime because she was a transgender using the lades loo.
In Maryland in 2011.

This thread has a surfeit of exciting new gender commentators.

There is very little violence against trans people - that's just something thrown about like suicide with no evidence to back it up.

For future reference, Fanjango's trans SIL being attacked is what is known as "evidence" of violence against trans people.

I think one local anecdote and one US anecdote plus one US court case qualify as very little violence over the years.

I notice that Cassie had a couple of comments deleted. Guidelines apply to everyone, yeah? Not just the evil nasty witches.

I'm not surprised at Cassie's deletions. I was going to warn them about their use of the T word, but tbh, I put so much effort into trying to cover all the bases with my replies in this thread, I decided to let them take their chances.

I don't like deletions for using banned terms in FWR, but at least this was even handed.

guidelines do indeed apply to everyone, and things over the years have happened I'm really glade that acts of violance and other criminal things are few and far between, though I do agree that there a lot of threats out there and they are usually TRA there is never an excuse for this, I'm not here to show that something did or did not happen if someone presents something that did happen I don't spend time saying it didn't or that it was not that bad I except it happened like Hyde Park we need to all condemn these things not because they prove our point but because they are just wrong and no one should try to justify them or down play them.

for balance and I don't know if its been highlighted before here is quite a good history of this debate, it is from a gender critical point of view. and does sight the death threats. I think it is a good article at showing none of this is new.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

acts of violance and other criminal things are few and far between

Morning Star open letter:
"Improving the climate of debate around proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act"

"You may be aware that on April 13 this year, an activist, Tara Wood was convicted of the assault by beating of Maria MacLachlan, a 60-year-old woman who had gathered with others in order to attend a meeting at which they could discuss the potential impact on women and girls of such a change to the law.

On March 8, an incident also occurred on a Bectu picket line in which trans activists, with no connection to the industrial dispute itself, mobbed and verbally attacked a female trade union member on the basis of having recognised her as an attendee at a similar meeting.

And in late April women in Bristol looking to meet and discuss changes to the Gender Recognition Act were met with masked activists blocking entrances to the venue, and deliberately intimidating those wishing to go inside.

More recently, a meeting organised by Woman’s Place UK was targeted with a bomb threat which Hastings Police are investigating as a serious incident.

These cases are part of systematic attempts to shut down meetings organised by women at which they can discuss potential legislative changes and the impact these may have on any sex-based rights already enshrined in law.

They draw the whole of our progressive movement into disrepute.

Some trans rights activists even continue to justify the use of violence, meaning that many women are simply too frightened to attend meetings that are both public and lawful in order that they may discuss their own rights.

Other women, including ordinary women concerned for their rights, as well as those active within the trade union movement and other political campaigns, are also now anxious and fearful that they will be subjected to such attacks when engaging in any political activity, meetings, or protests." (continues)

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/improving-climate-debate-around-proposed-changes-gender-recognition-act

This predates the actions towards WPUK and its speakers such as Kathleen Stock prior to the Brighton meeting:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3292400-WPUK-Brighton-Meeting-Turning-the-Tide

A page of tweets threatening violence from the same TRAs who would like to access women's safe spaces.

manfridayuk.org/2018/05/04/manfriday-the-11th-our-very-own-art-exhibition/

Can anyone find any examples of feminists making such threats?

Thought not.

Acts of violence or intimidation are not 'few and far between'. They are routine.

Both for disagreement, and for the very act of speaking about it. The police have visited a woman on another thread because she maintained that nails and a handbag do not constituent a woman.

It's quite clear to everyone on the planet that is a true statement. What is disputed is whether or not she should say it. How she should say it, to whom and why.

Quite normal people are claiming she has no right to say it. Despite her saying it being in defence of women's rights.

People are calling the police on women, the police are responding instead of escorting the complaint from the building, other people on social media feel quite confident to ask how she said it, to whom, and why? Ticking a series of secret boxes to find out whether the woman's opinion is acceptable or not.

This is routine. It's practically guaranteed if you say anything that could possibly be construed as wrongthink.

4/7/18 James Kirkup 'Labour and Tories finally see the truth about the gender debate':
(extract)
"It is, again, a simple fact that people with penises have the potential to commit certain acts of violence and abuse against others. That fact is the reason Parliament and society accept the concept of single-sex spaces: women have a right to keep someone with a penis out of those spaces.

Upholding that legal right is possibly the founding principle of several women’s groups that have sprung up since the Government first announced its intent to make it easier for people to change their legal gender. Unlike the charities that lobby for transgender rights, the women’s groups — Woman’s Place UK, Fair Play for Women and ManFriday — have no corporate or public sector funding, and not much money at all. They are genuine grassroots political organisations that have sprung up from a concerned public. Those groups have made a difference. Back in the autumn, that point about female-only spaces was either often ignored or dismissed in political debate. Women talking about penises were ridiculed as bigoted cranks, accused of transphobic misinformation. Their meetings were subjected to violent protests (one person has been convicted of assault) and a bomb threat, threats that went shamefully unremarked on by most politicians. Nevertheless, the women persisted: the meetings continued; the campaigns went on; and it made a difference.

Why has the Government decided to say it will listen to grassroots feminists? That brings me to the less public bit of the story. Some people have been listening to the women’s groups, even if they don’t say so publicly. They include quite a lot of MPs, of all parties. The steady flow of letters and emails from constituents has helped some see that quite a few voters are unhappy about this. (This poll from Pink News underlines that point: 18 per cent of all voters, and 13 per cent of Tories, support allowing people to change their legal gender without medical approval.) That sort of feeling does tell on politicians, even if many aren’t keen to say so publicly, for fear of being accused, like those women’s groups, of nasty transphobia.

(If you doubt the extent of that chilling effect, consider that bomb threat I mentioned. It was made against a Woman’s Place UK meeting in Hastings, in Amber Rudd’s ultra-marginal seat. Even though it would only take a few hundred angry women to switch votes to topple her, Rudd hasn’t yet responded to campaigners’ requests to speak about what the police call a “serious” incident. I find it hard to think of other circumstance in which a former Home Secretary would stay silent about a bomb threat made against a public meeting in their constituency.)" (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/labour-and-tories-finally-see-the-truth-about-the-gender-debate/

If acts of violence are few and far between, how come the only meetings women can have are ones that are arranged, hosted and attended by men?

Women can't literally meet up without men being there, if the do they face bomb threats, being beaten up, being barricaded by men in balaclavas, being shut down, being shouted down, meetings being cancelled - how is this few and far between when it is literally every time?

Possibly the fact that 40% of transgenders incarcerated are there for sex crimes? Just a thought.

You know that figure is speculative, and it can't be extrapolated back to the general population at large otherwise 46% of women would have attempted suicide at some point in their lifetime and 59% would be alcoholics.

acts of violance and other criminal things are few and far between

March 2018 James Kirkup 'Fear and loathing grips the gender debate'

(extract)
"Many of the people I’ve been in touch with are women who worry about the direction of politics, policy and even popular culture when it comes to gender and sex. And many of them are frightened.

Frightened of what happens if the law is changed to let people born male become legally female simply on the strength of their own declaration. Frightened that the word “woman” will become meaningless and allow the legal rights and protections currently granted to women to be eroded and erased. Frightened to meet to discuss these concerns. Frightened even to speak about them.

Some of these women are political activists and professionals, but some are, to use a clumsy term, ordinary people, women who never gave much thought to politics until they stumbled across this issue through questions about swimming pool changing rooms, Girl Guides safeguarding policies, or Mumsnet. Now aware of – and worried about – politics, they believe they should speak about their worries, but fear what will happen if they do.

Why? Well, as I’ve written before, the debate around gender is poisonous, nasty and even violent. Online conversation can turn extremely hostile when someone questions the orthodoxy on transgender issues – or is simply perceived to have done so: some people have written some venomous things about JK Rowling because she “liked” a tweet some saw as transphobic. Neither celebrity nor the facts (she hit the like button by accident) are any defence from the mob.

Real-world encounters can be nastier still: Judith Green wrote here about organising Woman’s Place UK meetings for “gender critical” women. The video here , meanwhile, shows what happened to a female trade unionist who had attended one of those meetings; it seems she was identified as attending and then targeted for mob abuse when she stood on a picket line some days later. That aggression wasn’t unique; one accusation of assault is before the courts, arising from an incident following protests against a meeting where feminists gathered to debate gender laws.

Other stories in this area involve women who speak out using their own names getting abusive messages at home and at work. In both the public and private sectors, being accused of transphobic bigotry is no small matter, and even many people who know they are doing nothing more than asking questions about an issue of public interest feel reluctant to risk being tarnished with such accusations, no matter how baseless they may be. (For real-world examples of this, see Mumsnet: this thread is just the latest to pop up while I was writing this. There are too many others.) continues

How can it be that in modern, democratic and free Britain in the early 21st Century, women are frightened to meet or talk about law, politics and society? Don’t we have institutions and, more important, social norms that say this shouldn’t happen, can’t happen? Shouldn’t this stuff get the attention and interest of politicians who are supposed to listen to all the different strands of public opinion, and ensure that everyone gets a chance to speak and be heard?

Bluntly, why the hell is no one in politics shouting from the rooftops about this stuff? We’re talking about people trying to put the frighteners on Mumsnetters, for goodness sake. In any other area of public life, politicians usually fall over themselves in their rush to speak up for middle-class working mothers. Yet the politicians who were desperate to talk biscuits at Mumsnet Towers are curiously silent about the intimidation that some women now report there" (continues)
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

"Possibly the fact that 40% of transgenders incarcerated are there for sex crimes? Just a thought."

You know that figure is speculative

There is a full breakdown of statistics including FOI response and MofJ statements:
(extract)
"The MoJ also revealed that 18 transgender prisoners are housed in Category A maximum security prisons. This is double the minimum estimate of 9 identified by Fair Play For Women.

The MoJ’s most recent response to our FOI requests mean that we now have incontrovertible official confirmation that a minimum of 52 of the 125 transgender prisoners (40%) are either held in sex offender or max security prisons. This does not include any data from individual prisons that hold fewer than 6 trans prisoners or any male-born transgender prisoners who have already obtained a female birth certificate, so this 40% figure will likely be much higher in reality. If the MoJ would reveal a complete set of figures, the public would be able to see for itself exactly how much higher this is."

fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/