People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

I have been reasing and reading to catch up and not posting. So coming to this thread late!

I just wanted to say @Floralbunting has said so many great and helpful things on this thread. And every sympathy for ypur daughter's situation. My best friend's child is going through this now but there does seem to be some light at the end of the tunnel.

@Bespin We do not always agree but i have found some of your posts helpful here. You seem to have good intentions and I feel sorry that many other people have posted in bad faith and that makes some of us suspicious! I may be one of the least suspicious people and I am now dismissing things some say because this debate gets so heated!

Violence is never acceptable (except in self defence). Avoiding harassment or violence is vital. Why has there not been a push for third spaces- unisex, gender neutral, fully enclosed, safe, toilet, changing and showering facilities?

Trans men and non-binary people would be helped by this. These people may not feel happy in the female space and not safe in the male one. Might not trans women and women be assisted by those spaces too.

In terms of suppprt for trans people, i think lots of people do 'support' but exactly what does support mean? It doesn't mean supporting self id as I think many people have no idea what self id means.

On a thread here or elsewhere someone suggested speeding up the GRC by not including anything medical. Surely that is failing to support trans people.

You know that figure is speculative, and it can't be extrapolated back to the general population at large otherwise 46% of women would have attempted suicide at some point in their lifetime and 59% would be alcoholics.

R0 has given the statistics and I would also add that it is not being extrapolated to the general population but is made within the context of the prison population in which a substantially lower number of male prisoners are incarcerated for sex crime.

For clarity, that should read: "a substantially lower number of non - transgender male prisoners"

I'm a lurker... don't post often but read a fair bit and this thread kept me awake last night.

I'm a board level marketeer - One of the key frameworks is Segmentation and Targeting.

The key point of segmentation is to group consumers with a similar need to enable effective communication / relevant products and services / messages that resonate etc.
Frustration is created if you are in the wrong segment - we've all had crap sent that's of no interest because it is not relevant.

So WHY do trans women (particularly) want to be accepted in to a segment of the population which is not relevant to them?

Medical needs are not similar - Women cervical screening, maternity, menopause support and a whole host of others

Social Support - Post children back to work schemes (predominately women), pre / post natal support networks

Career Support - Fair Wage, Maternity, Keep in touch days etc.

Yes not all these apply to all women and they are hundreds of other examples but all women can see the benefit for their category because ... the need is the same which is primarily driven by biology. (Just be cause I can't have children so won't use maternity services doesn't mean I can't see the benefit of maternity services etc)

So WHY would a transwomen want to join a segment which does them such a disservice?

From a purely altruistic point of view it would be better for a trans category to be clear about the need that they want satisfying - to enable it to be effectively satisfied. I think many posters have identified within "transgender" there are conflicting needs - so this creates further issues! Wanting to be "women" is not a clear need / to what end and how does it benefit them - they will be ineffectually serviced if this is not clear.

This lack of a clear segmentation / similar needs makes it virtually impossible for organisations to target segments with the relevant service / products further creating frustration on both sides.

It's like a person with healthy tonsils demanding access to a tonsillectomy - why!!

It's like a person with healthy tonsils demanding access to a tonsillectomy - why!!

One theory is that it is not so much about trans rights as keeping women in our places, silenced and subservient with our rights eroded.

I would also add that it is not being extrapolated to the general population but is made within the context of the prison population in which a substantially lower number of [non - transgender] male prisoners are incarcerated for sex crime.

Well, in that case male patterns of offending are NOT the same in the trans community, are they, and something is skewing them higher, just as something is skewing, say, the 31% of women in prison who have spent time in local authority care as a child.

Exactly Needchoos!

If you follow the ‘transwomen are women’ logic, transwomen would no longer receive healthcare appropriate to their bodies (and the statistical risks that their bodies are associated with).

We need women politicians because they understand the difficulties women face in the workplace and in society - these difficulties are related directly to our sex.

I absolutely support trans people in political and public life, but lumping transwomen in with women and putting them on all women shortlists does nothing for transmen and non binary people and nothing to redress the balance of female/male sexed bodies in parliament.

Decisions are made by whoever is in the room at the time - surely equality requires population proportional women AND transpeople in those rooms?

Well, in that case male patterns of offending are NOT the same in the trans community, are they, and something is skewing them higher

I think that is our point! If transgender offenders show a higher propensity for sexual crime, we want them out of our spaces. It doesn't really matter to the victim what caused that behaviour.

Needchoos great post!

One thing that's always seemed incredibly obvious proof that TWAW isn't true, is the way TRA behave.
Blatant, in-your-face cases toxic male entitlement.

Outrage, threats and acts of violence, threats of sexual assault, coercion.

Male privilege with a great manicure doesn't make someone a woman.

Yet Another Spartacus - that is a hugely depressing thought. From the few trans people who have posts - I don't think that is the core segment's issue I think thats its more TRA territory. (I truly hope)

Betty - Yes agree. Especially as Trans People have very particular needs. The key issue is that women's messaging is old - sorry - our message is being lost in the "shine new" so we need some better/clearer marketing messages ( Our core product have changed, our value hasn't changed we are still 52% of the population and we have significant spending power and value to the population)
Trans messaging is loud and repetitive - (but untruthful)
Our message is where? Manfriday was inspired (I actually use it as a case study its so good) but why doesn't is resonate with decision makers? Where are we missing a trick? We have a women PM and we are still getting shafted? Where are the "woman allies" - the dads, the husbands / brothers who are not doing enough for their wives / sisters and daughters - selling them short when they are in the boardroom, chambers or courtrooms. Our sphere of influence is vast and we do not leverage it. There is no "Old Woman's Network" but there bloody should be..because there are women in boardroom etc

Yet Another Spartacus - that is a hugely depressing thought. From the few trans people who have posts - I don't think that is the core segment's issue I think thats its more TRA territory. (I truly hope)

Oh, I agree. But many trans people who post here (as you say above) do not want to be considered as women. I was only referring to a particular demographic of those who do.

I think that is our point! If transgender offenders show a higher propensity for sexual crime, we want them out of our spaces. It doesn't really matter to the victim what caused that behaviour

This is fairly obvious, when crossdressers and such come under the umbrella. Been fairly well known for a while that certain fetishes are very prevalent in sex offenders..so widen the definition of trans to include these fetishes, and obviously the amount of sex offenders in the new trans definition is disproportionate.

Yet, feminists are blamed for this, feminists did not include fetishists under the trans bloody label. Its 'pro-trans' groups that did that.

Well, in that case male patterns of offending are NOT the same in the trans community, are they, and something is skewing them higher

And? What do you think it could be? And doesn't that make it rather relevant?

Well, in that case male patterns of offending are NOT the same in the trans community, are they, and something is skewing them higher,

Yes, indeed it is. Weird huh?

Again this increased propensity to sexually offend is due to the overly diverse group of people squeezed under "transgender" which does a disservice to trans and women alike. Stonewall shafted their own, royally.

So WHY do trans women (particularly) want to be accepted in to a segment of the population which is not relevant to them?

This is an interesting question, and one which should be asked more often.

Their 'version' of womanhood is a fantasy of their own making. The male version.

It's about as different to actual womanhood as you can get.

Sometimes it's hyper sexualised, as that is how the viewer perceives women. Sometimes it is an earnest desire to become one of the gatekeepers to sex. They view women as the cohort who get to decide whether or not men have sex. If they become one of that cohort, they can say yes to sex all the time. They are the decider. I have the power.

Which is why such importance is placed on not actually speaking about women's biology, as it exclusionary. It spoils the picture. And why you will find lots of blogs talking about how great is to be objectified.

For transsexuals, I believe it is different. My perception is that it's more a rejection of masculinity, which defaults to femininity as the only available option.

But for all the cohorts, they are not actually trying to enter the segment that's not relevant to them, they are trying to get that segment changed, so it is.

Post edited by MNHQ

How has Stonewall a charity originally about sexuality become an authority on trans?

*they have the power

Datun "But for all the cohorts, they are not actually trying to enter the segment that's not relevant to them, they are trying to get that segment changed, so it is."

I would like to know what factors drive trans men and if and how this differs between trans men and women, especially the younger prople.

I am sure some feelings and motives may be the same but think some are different.

Are many young trans men or young dysphoric females thinking about joining a different sex class or abdicating their own? Again there will be a mix of reasons.

Datun - I think you post really highlights the conflicts within the "transgender" TWAW mantra. Not all want it and the ones that do want the brand "woman" want none of the values and responsibilities with it. Just the Trademark logo, as it were.

Which devalues "woman" as a brand and damages values it stands for.

It's interesting- this "I'm all right,Jack" approach that India W was postulating on LW. She clearly separated herself from Transgender and in to transsexual- is this the snake eating itself? To will transsexual be policing entry to Woman?

She very strongly "othered" the rest of the trans community... she's not the only one doing this, either...

Younger people...

Yeps I have wondered this. What is it I have and I am that they want ?

NeedChoos
IW has U-turned from her position this April (back to, I believe, her position previously?):

"I admit – I wasn’t convinced about self ID myself to begin with, but the evidence from around the world is irrefutable. I was categorically wrong, and fell for the hysteria.

Portugal, Ireland, Norway, Columbia, Malta, Belgium, Denmark and Argentina have or are adopting the same legislation – and there have been no spikes is assaults.

Women’s areas will not become dangerous places when the Gender Recognition Act is passed."

But this isn’t a them-and-us argument which pitches trans women against other women. We are women who make up a tiny one percent of the population. The chances are you don’t even know any of us.

All we want to do is use the appropriate bathroom or changing area, and get on with our lives.

Which is where I would ask all women who think of themselves as feminists, or equal rights supporters, to stand alongside trans women at the moment.

There are grandmothers, mothers, sisters and aunts out there who know the truth that their trans relatives are not serial sex offenders, or a threat to society"

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/