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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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People apparently support trans

568 replies

Janni01 · 05/08/2018 17:56

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

OP posts:
EntropicTupperwareDrawer · 07/08/2018 08:43

I would be very interested in some more detail on the violence of gender critical feminists.

Can you elaborate, please , bespin? where are these violent feminists?

R0wantrees · 07/08/2018 08:44

24/7/18 The Federalist: Natasha Chart is the board chair of the Women’s Liberation Front & has written this piece collating international attacks on women,

"Trans Activists’ Threats To Execute Women Sure Don’t Look Like Social Justice"

(extract)
"Can you imagine? Lesbians at Pride! Protesting sexism! The nerve.

Women, including many feminists and lesbians, have been making news in the United Kingdom lately for having a series of peaceful political actions to protest the Conservative Party government’s proposed changes to the 2004 Gender Recognition Act, which would eliminate any need for medical diagnosis to be able to change all of a person’s legal documents to conceal his or her birth sex.

Women criticizing this gender identity policy have been accused for many years of being puppets of religious conservatives, an accusation newly revived, even as it has passed beneath comment that its UK fortunes now depend on a good, working relationship with Britain’s Tory Party, and their conservative prime minister.

Women have raised concerns in meetings across the UK about how this would affect all single-sex accommodations, including prisons, domestic violence refuges, women-only recreational facilities, homeless shelters, and the privacy and safety of female patients in some medical settings. Gender activists say it’s “violent” to voice these concerns, and to say aloud that male people can’t be women.

Attendees and speakers at these meetings have been intimidated, assaulted, had their employment threatened, been kicked off of their political party rolls, been subjected to police inquest and disciplinary hearings for making statements of biological fact, and had a recent bomb threat made against one of their meetings. The “violence” of women’s recognition of biological sex is invoked to excuse this as a “proportionate response” from transgender people." (continues)

concludes:
"In this terrifying climate that gender activists have benefitted from, the source of their power, and the reason that they can pretend only religious conservatives disagree with the doctrine that penises can be female, a [person] dares to ask why we have decided to work with people with whom we agree on almost nothing else? From the perch of the multimillion-dollar, corporate-backed organizations that support [them], [they] questions a $15,000 grant accepted after the fact, for work we conceived, planned, and executed ourselves? Is [the person] really curious why?

It’s because we have tried everything else, but gender activists wanted to drive us home in silence. The conservatives I’ve talked with are the only ones standing up for me, and they aren’t pretending to be feminists when they aren’t. It’s because gender politics is destroying children’s health, and people’s lives, and women’s most basic rights, and it should be opposed.

If I, or any of my gender-critical friends, were attacked by someone who has said I deserve “the wall” for disagreeing with them, I expect the Left would pretend it didn’t happen. Maybe that seems harsh, but they’ve demonstrated time and again that they care more about the pronouns of ** male [born trans women] murderers than they do about the safety or privacy of women.

None of them will speak out when, as happened again last weekend, the most disgusting threats are made against our lives, because they’re demanding partisan loyalty from women to whom they have refused even the most basic decency or consideration."

thefederalist.com/2018/07/24/trans-activists-threats-execute-women-sure-dont-look-like-social-justice/

article edited in respect of MN rules

Bespin · 07/08/2018 08:45

AngryAttackKittens

no I don't think I am doing a good job sometimes. because people don't want to relate to other people, and sometimes because I also don't listen to people we all make mistakes and get passionate about the things that are importent to us. there are a few people on here that never want to listen to someone. just because they know they are trans and will dismiss them even with valid points it and same is also true for TRA ans this is the issue.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 08:48

EntropicTupperwareDrawer

that as already been discussed and is easy to find with Google

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 08:48

Indeed, I would love to see examples of GC women actually being violent rather than "mean", impolite, etc. If none can be provided it looks very much like some people are trying to conflate punches and murder threats with "misgendering" and frame those as representing similar levels of aggression.

The Atwood quote about men being afraid that women will laugh at them and women being afraid that men will kill them does rather come to mind.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 08:51

right your going to make me post this but please put this in context its historical not in this country and is one of only a few isolated cases.

www.transadvocate.com/terf-violence-and-sandy-stone_n_14360.htm

EntropicTupperwareDrawer · 07/08/2018 08:52

I must have missed that, bespin.

What should i be googling? I genuinely wouldn’t know where to start as i am not aware of any strand of feminism that advocates violence towards anyone.

You said there have been “acts of violence on both sides”.

I do not believe there have been, and that you’re creating a false equivalence to smear feminists by association. But if you can show me, then maybe I’d have to reconsider.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 08:53

can we agree now it as happened and move on just as Hyde Park happened or we can keep going over it and never move past it

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 07/08/2018 08:54

How many transpeople have posted on FWR telling us to ignore all of the threats and intimidation and just concentrate on the trans who just want to get on with their lives instead? The same ones who aren't doing anything to stop the threats of violence and who are happy to stand back and watch it happen.

If transpeople want to be taken seriously on FWR, they need to get their own house in order. They need to rid their movement of people who want to harm women and girls and come up with solutions that keep women and girls safe.

Is there a way of allowing legitimate male transpeople into female spaces that keep the abusers out? Or is that question going to be ignored again?

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 08:55

A source that's a bit less biased, please. I've seen some of the other stuff that site has published.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 07/08/2018 08:55

historically there have been acts of violence on both side

What acts of violence have there been from Gender Critical feminists [previously called just radical feminists]?

there are a few people on here that never want to listen to someone. just because they know they are trans and will dismiss them even with valid points

Incorrect. I don't listen to people who tell me what to think and tell me what to do. If people are doing that, I immediately think they are being controlling. It just so happens that those people on here do tend to have been born male. What are the chances?

Bespin · 07/08/2018 08:56

none of this is new and for those of us who have been doing this a while it does get. frustrating to keep going over it it was not new in re 1970s either but I was not around then. I have talked with people that were and they don't see anything new in all this today either

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 07/08/2018 08:57

I've not been well for a couple of days, thought it was all better but reading cassie's posts have made me feel queasy again. It's generous of you to explain feminism - I'm off to ask Rachel Dolezal about black rights. I'm not sure if you realise how your posts read but they have a good deal of paternalistic certainty overlaid with a artificial veneer of tolerance which cracks at the least tap. Then there are the wildly illogical statements presented as facts. And I noted the old, frankly, homophobic and racist comments you made about black women and lesbians.

Science, actual science, has been referenced several times. Posters have asked about the mythical third gamete and answer came there none. Instead, we've been told that biological and gender identity don't align. Well colour me surprised! A purely social construct created to maintain a patriarchal hierarchy doesn't align to your reproductive organs? We. Know. That. Women have fought for years to dismantle harmful stereotypes. Much of our anger stems form the fact that certain interest groups are determined to use these stereotypes as the defining factors of gender and are encouraging young people to cut up their bodies on that basis.

And then there's the cheating and the appropriation. Floral has mentioned women's sports. We have men on political women's short lists and parties who are prepared to let them usurp these slots on their own say so (even if they are fully bearded and only identify one day a week!).

I don't care how anyone dresses and I'd like society to accept them for how they are without the threat of violence. Believe it or not, I'm a liberal. But the demands of one group for validation can never take priority over the safety of another. Especially when all the evidence points to the fact that male patterns of offending are the same in the trans community. Especially when we know that the umbrella has extended so far that it now encompasses some pretty outré fetishes which have often being indicators of increased levels of sexual violence.

Your response to or fears of male violence? Of course, TWAW! How, how does this happen? Do you believe in a lady soul? A last brain? Because the first is an article of faith and while I think all are entitled to freedom in religion, they are not entitled to impose this on anyone else. The second is discredited by science. Worse, The concept of a female brain is the justification of sexist systems and societies to prevent women working, driving, owning property etc.

You then pull out the old canard that male violence is our fault. Trust me, thuggish alt-right MRAs or incels aren't hanging round feminists being radicalized or finding justification to punch someone. I am happy for you to campaign for safe third spaces - I'll help - just don't take ours.

I have enormous sympathy for people with dysphoria. I cannot imagine the pain they suffer and I want them to have help - especially counselling. That's the thing though, I cannot imagine. I can empathize, but it isn't my experience. Just as mine is not theirs. That said, however, I think most of us have been prepared to accord them honorary status because we were aware that the journey had been difficult. However once medical gatekeeping is removed we haven't even protection.

Neither, of course, do transwomen. If the push back happens (and it will - it will take some horrible and avoidable incidents at girl guides, for example, or on a hospital ward) those who have sought alleviation for the terrible distress caused by their sexed body will be the collateral damage in a war waged on women by entitled and narcissistic men.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 08:58

And no, we can't move on, because there are TRAs threatening to hurt non-complaint women right now. Which remains true no matter how hard you try to spin it.

EntropicTupperwareDrawer · 07/08/2018 08:58

i’m going to have to read that later as i’m at work now.

Bespin · 07/08/2018 08:59

AngryAttackKittens look up. that story it's in. a number of places it's factual also the attacks at the music festivals the lesbian avengers stuff, yes I know comics again lol its all there none of it relates to today and no one in. the UK is doing that but it happened just as some TRA pretend Hyde Park Was not assult when it clearly was no one is asking for it ever

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 07/08/2018 08:59

And obviously that took ages and you're on other stuff. Needed to get it off my chest!

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 08:59

Pretty much all of the regulars on there will happily listen to and engage with Curry, or TruScum, or Pigeon, all of whom are trans. It's people like Cassie who nobody is listening to (huh, I wonder why that could be?)

Bespin · 07/08/2018 09:00

anyway it's a sunny day and this boat will not drive itself, off to Moor outside a pub lol have a lovely day all.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 09:01

Sometimes a good vent is just what you need, Alice!

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 07/08/2018 09:05

can we agree now it as happened

No, of course I am not going to read an article called TERF VIOLENCE, written by TRAS!

Send the news reports on the case.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/08/2018 09:06

From the same site that thinks Janice Raymond is responsible for thousands of trans deaths. Super credible, they are.

Ereshkigal · 07/08/2018 09:08

Is that literally the only source TRAs have? The people behind that site are pretty misogynistic, Bespin.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 07/08/2018 09:13

AAK Grin

It is. I've been reading and getting cross but was too ill to reply! Length of post may be indicative of how much was pent up!

titchy · 07/08/2018 09:16

I'm in favour of some checks and balances I just wanted a simpler less midical system as the waiting is now too long for that to be workable.

There seems to be a lot of money in the TRA movement. If the problem is access to medical services in order to proceed down the current GRC process, isn't the answer to use that money to buy or campaign for improved access to medical services, rather than doing away with the need for them entirely? Confused