People apparently support trans

[Janni01]

Don't know if these has been discussed, but was watching a soy documentary on the fight between trans and feminists and it actually said 72% of females support transwomen using female facilities and services and 65% of men support transmen using male services and facilities.

Anyone have any clue why so many seem to support this?

Hmm, had a quick skim of that but can’t see where gender critical feminists actually hurt anyone, which is what i was asking for. Violence from women directed towards trans people is what i asked you to evidence. That article doesn’t evidence that at all. It’s not balanced journalism is it? Only one side given.

We’re being blamed here for male violence, is what’s happening. You’re saying violence comes from “both sides”. I don’t think it does.

bespin

I agree with florals post at 00.34

(Although at 14 a 'transgirl' is as capable of accidentally getting a female accidentally pregnant as any other male...which would be one of my concerns with the guides)

Fionne Orlander recently said:

If we don't address male pattern abuse it transitions with us.

Fionne is right. And I would suggest this due diligence is done before coming to feminist spaces and lecturing women with MRA talking points (because MRA talking points would be the QED that Fionne is talking about).

Bespin Are you aware of this article theterfs.com/ ? I think it mentions the incident you're referring to as well as alledging many others.

By way of context, this was listed on a slideshow as part of 'recommended reading' . The slideshow was used during a workshop at the Women's 18 conference . The workshop was run by NUS offficers, Rowan Davis: NUS Women's Committee & Eden Ladley: NUS Trans Campaign and who described this article as 'a really good guide that outlines common TERF arguments"

(both NUS reps have been supportive of Jess Bradley)

This slideshow, 'How to Deal with Terfs' was also shared / recommended online by some prominant TRAs.

discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs?pg=4

It's the same people Rowan.

I thought the fonts were similar, thanks Eresh

This is an extract from the 'recommended reading /really good guide':

"In the 1980s, TERFs substantively supported the effort to bring an end to trans health care access. One TERF operative wrote a government report which led the the revocation of public and private insurance converge of trans medical care. According to the State of California, such policies lead to the death of trans people.

For decades, TERFs have sought to legislate trans people out of existence. Moreover, they work to oppose trans equality measures, infiltrate trans-inclusive feminist spaces, work with anti-gay groups to target trans kids and collaborate with anti-trans extremists who advocate bombing US targets.

Much like their far right-wing counterparts, TERFs do not support trans people using the restroom. In fact, the TERF community was the first to use this as a political issue way back in 1973."

It's ludicrous to suggest that feminists are inciting violence or being violent.

My only request would be to lay out my concerns, and let them be publicised to as many people as humanly possible.

Theoretically I wouldn't even have to get involved in debate or dialogue. If someone wants to refute my points, my counter. points would take a few minutes.

Job done.

And Bespin constantly trying to make women come up with a solution is never going to work. Why should we negotiate exactly how many of our boundaries we relinquish?

It's immaterial to the feminist board standpoint whether the government is going to abolish the GRA, or not.

I object in principle to the entire ideology.

Scottish children are being told they have a sex, and then encouraged to express an interest in the opposite sex toys but told it makes them transgender. It's nonsense.

There's no way I'm going to accept that transgender is something that authenticates the dismantling of women's spaces.

And in terms of the government not being able to accept that, that's a laughable bit of leverage. Women's rights would never have got off the ground if they listened to 'but the government won't accept that'.

Banned By Trans: Who’s Silencing Who: online blog that outlines various cases of ‘assault, unemployment, de-platforming, unpublishing, disinvitation and event cancellation as a direct result of “offending” transactivists’.

bannedbytrans.wordpress.com/masterpost/

Thanks for that R0wantrees.

It's fairly tedious having to constantly refute the same nonsensical claims (both 'sides' are violent, women predate too, what about lesbians, it's racist/homophobic/a hate crime to protect women's rights, etc).

Fortunately it's not hard.

" living full time in there role "

Female is not a role? Woman / girl is not a role? In what way is a baby girl or an elderly woman playing a "role"?

Just catching up.

Also wanted to say that for me personally issues like abortion rights around the world, the fact that previously won rights are under attack in some countries (not just the USA) and of course the situaiton we have here with NI are at the forefront of my mind however I am able to care about more than 1 thing at a time.

If we have to agree that biology is imaginary (a social construct) then what that logically means for the entire abortion debate is anyone's guess. Do people need access to procedures on imaginary things? I am sure the anti abortionists will find a way to exploit the removal of the ability to talk about biology to their advantage.

Apart from anything else we have prominent trans people who claim to be feminists saying that at women's marches, focussing on issues like abortion, having placards about it, is "exclusionary" and women should NOT DO IT. In the face of this, we literally have prominent trans people telling women to shut up about abortion. So.... there's that...

In Bespin’s defence, the ‘living in role’ language is part of the transsexual pathway clinician-speak, and has been around for donkeys years (with a bit of tinkering around the edges).

You are right, Nothingon, it’s ludicrous sounding out of context (being female is not a role, just a material fact) but it’s not language that transgender people or TRA types invented (and crikey knows TRA types love misappropriating words and phrases).

The rights to organise politically and self represent as a class (a class defined by our reproductive role) are actually the most important of all in this - because it’s that representation that gets/protects all the other rights.

Being told not to talk about our biology because it’s ‘not inclusive’ effectively means we are being told we cannot organise as a class - the very definition of oppression.

Apart from anything else we have prominent trans people who claim to be feminists saying that at women's marches, focussing on issues like abortion, having placards about it, is "exclusionary" and women should NOT DO IT. In the face of this, we literally have prominent trans people telling women to shut up about abortion. So.... there's that...

Yes - it's one thing to be anti-abortion on religious/etc grounds, but simply telling women to "shut up" about it is just not especially supportive of women, is it?

The rights to organise politically and self represent as a class (a class defined by our reproductive role) are actually the most important of all in this - because it’s that representation that gets/protects all the other rights.

Exactly. Which is why the political representation achieved by all women shortlists is so vital.

It's the platform from which all else flows.

"Gynocentric feminism" is exclusionary and "terfy"

Apparently.

And we all know that it's "femme" people (of all genders) who are oppressed, right?

The stuff around this all over the place is ridiculous.

As for role - just have a look at our friend Pip/ Phil Bunce who clearly believe that woman is exactly a role and involves standing like "I'm a little teapot".

Hi all,
We have sent several strikes and made several deletions and would like to remind everyone, particularly some of our newer members, about our recent guideline changes, which very much emphasise civility with regards to this discussion.

Thanks Hope!

Glad to see the thread still stands. We realise it makes for a heavier workload but it’s very deflating to see carefully considered opinions and well-researched debates disappear entirely, so your work is very much appreciated.

We have many old friends ,and a couple of ex,s who are old school type F2M , they are normal decent blokes now ,

you don't turn your back on friends just because the wrapper is different , all the F2M,s we know are 100% against self ID

Jo and I were at York Pride earlier in the year, we threw two Transvestites out of the ladies loo !

the few M2F,S we know again are old friends ( were gay men before , so not interested in women in the slightest ) and no problem to anyone , they just want to live quiet lives without anyone knowing

all we have spoken to are also against self ID

BettyDuMonde

Thanks unfortunately this the language we are stuck with and I would not choose to use it but it is hard to find words to express just living your life. a lot of the issues with gatekeeping and the medical profession are based around the fact they defined our condition for us and tried to put us in boxes and made us jump through a lot of hoops the style counciling was a perticually fun one to have to go through she thought I should go for a rockier Joan jet type look lol.

"Gynocentric feminism" is exclusionary and "terfy"

Well, anything that centres women is seen as bad in a man's world. Putting two female centred words together is just asking for trouble. Although I'm going out on a limb here and saying that Gynocentric is redundant in this context.

Bespin for someone on holiday you are spending an inordinate amount of time here, telling women off for their words.

Why not take a break? Just let women type what they feel for a change?

Ah, but the 'Fem' in that context is short for Femininity, Zutt. Heavily applied. Obviously.

Datun

I object in principle to the entire ideology

Completely agree.

TERF operative

Well that's not alarmist or anything...are they like evil vagina-y James Bond?

Bespin

That Janice Raymond/Sandy Stone stuff sounds terrible in that. I have read a lot of stuff from transavocate though and they have a habit of twisting stuff and in some cases making stuff up entirely, so I will take it with a pinch of salt, and the only other places I can find it is places like 'rationalwiki' which is actually worse that transadvocate most of the time! But if it actually happened like that, thats shocking and obviously very wrong. Its still one person though, from like 1970. Where transactivists are making daily threats, commiting violence regularly and so on. So its quite..wrong to claim both sides are as bad as each other IMO.

The story about Janice Raymond ending government supported surgery for transgenders with one single report has been debunked many times. She even set the record straight a few times before realizing that zombie lies never die because men never stop telling them and believing them.
The men who made these decisions about surgical risks for body dysmorphic disorder have also explained exactly why they decided what they did when they did.
Still, why tell the truth about men when you can blame women for what men do.