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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
drspouse · 25/07/2018 13:58

I'm also a Guider and I would urge you:

If you are a Guide/Brownie etc. parent or you are thinking of sending your daughter:
Please, TELL your leaders. They do NOT know about this policy unless they have been paying very close attention. GG are refusing to publicise or discuss this (the OP mentioned some media opportunities that didn't get broadcast - the media loses interest when the organisation in question won't talk to them - you may have heard this happening on the Today Programme).

Talk to everyone you know about the policy too. Especially if you know any GG parents or any leaders.

GG have slightly altered their residentials policy earlier this year to say that "everyone must be comfortable" or some such. Of course, if parents and leaders don't know this is a policy, they can't check if everyone's comfortable. But parents need to be telling individual leaders that they are not comfortable.

I too would love to know what the magic difference is between a boy, and a trans girl!

drspouse · 25/07/2018 14:16

Queen when you get to Guides/Rangers and if you go to a joint residential you don't know all the girls.

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 15:38

"Saying what you think and sharing your opinions is important to get your point across. Speaking out draws attention to something that’s wrong or that you think is great. Spread the word, speak out and make a difference."

www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-badges-and-activities/badge-finder/speaking-out/

Live your values please GG

PinaGrigio · 25/07/2018 15:48

Agnes, writing as a former Queen's Guide, just thank you for all you have done in raising this issue. The whole thing is making me very angry, especially the way you are being treated by GG. I think it is absolutely shocking that parents are not being informed by GG of this change to policy and that those girls who need an organisation like GG the most are in fact being told there is no place for them.

It's made worse somehow by the fact that this is an organisation set up to represent girls and young women, yet it seems prepared to throw them under the bus without a qualm. As has been noted above, why on earth aren't they meeting with you and other GC guiders to discuss this? I can only hope that the change of senior leadership will enable a change of direction on this issue.

Chocolatecake84 · 26/07/2018 22:14

I'm so sorry you're going through this, it's shit.

I want to thank you for all that you're doing. People need to know. Parents need to know. In fact, everyone needs to know.

What is happening is a massive failure of basic safeguarding and it is absolutely appalling.

vicviking · 27/07/2018 07:11

Thanks Agnes for your work on this.

To GGUK I say for the sake of the girls in your care climb down and admit you got this one wrong. You won't be the only organisation that will need to do this in the coming months. You are a single sex organisation. You need to keep children safe. You clearly didn't risk assess your policy change. You just listened to biased advocacy groups and accepted their version of inclusion. I am also shocked at the way in which employees and volunteers are being made to lie by parroting such nonsensical notions to parents who raise genuine concerns. Women gaslighting other women when we all care so much about the safety and well being of children. Why?

socktastic · 27/07/2018 09:42

I have just read through this thread open mouthed. I am a brownie guided but was latterly working with guides. I stopped 2 years ago as a maternity leave always intending to go back. Now I don't think I will and it makes me sad since I have always been involved since I was a rainbow myself. I could not in good conscience operate within these new policies of girlguiding.

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 10:09

Stephen Whittle came on here a few months ago and had the most marvellous solution to this! He said that Leaders should be issued with a supply of condoms.

thread with Stephen Whittle's comments re Guiding:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212371-Where-are-all-the-trans-men-An-Answer

see also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3249035-Stephen-Whittle-s-blog-on-Genderquake-with-a-detailed-briefing-for-panelists

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 27/07/2018 10:12

Sweet Jesus Hmm

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 10:15

Link to thread discussing panel about trans inclusion & Girl Guiding hosted by Maria Miller MP at Speaker's house (May 2018):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 10:18

Brilliant thank you! I was looking for that one. The Bunce one.

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 10:29

Was there ever any confirmation as to whether Philip / Pips Bunce had a specific role with Girl Guides?

I know Philip / Pips Bunce is an important advocate for Stonewall & LGBT+ champion

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

enoughisenough12 · 27/07/2018 10:37

I think it's absolutely great that GG are apparently watching this thread. There are some insightful and very important points about safeguarding, lack of equality impact assessment, the Charity commission amongst others.

All organisations need to keep an eye on their public liability insurance and if an organisation has been so foolish as to develop policy that negatively impacts on safeguarding children following advice from a lobby group of all things, then they are likely to be on the receiving end of some expensive lawsuits if a child is harmed. And a defence that lobby group told us it was OK is unlikely to stand up as a defence in court. Lack of due diligence and all that...

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 10:45

An important current thread discussing the systemic failings / failures of safeguarding frameworks and possible consequences for child protection and the safeguarding of vulnerable adults:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 10:55

There are some insightful and very important points about safeguarding, lack of equality impact assessment, the Charity commission amongst others.

There are a number of very significant issues raised within this article which seem likely to be similarly the case in other organisations, charities and services in private, voluntary and statuatory sectors:

Herald June 2018:
'Schools 'forget' girls in rush to adopt pro-trans guidance campaigners claim as Christian group threatens legal action'
(extract)
THE rights of Scottish schoolgirls are being undermined by rules allowing pupils to adopt a different gender and share changing rooms, it has been claimed, as it emerged schools are unprepared for the controversial overhaul.

A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls.

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account.

The data comes as a Christian charity is due to launch a legal challenge over the new guidelines.

Lodged by feminist campaigner and mother of two Jess Stewart, the FoI results suggest councils are failing to consider the ramifications of the move.

Ms Stewart said she recognises the need to support transgender children.

“They are obviously wanting to do the right thing which is great. But they’ve done it without considering girls,” she said.

“Girls are absolutely negatively affected by this. It is important to raise awareness of transgender children but putting a transgender girl in a changing room with 30 other girls isn’t proportionate.

“They should at least have looked at the possible fall out from putting a male-bodied person in changing rooms which are being used by 14, 15 and 16 year old girls.”

Among the councils which have endorsed the guidance produced by LGBT Youth and the Scottish Trans Alliance, Glasgow, West Lothian, Clackmannanshire and South Lanarkshire said they were unable to publish an assessment of the likely impact on other pupils as they had not carried one out. Edinburgh City Council failed to respond. The office of the Scottish Children's Commissioner, Education Scotland and the Scottish Government have all also backed the LGBT Youth guide.

Scotland's Children's commissioner said: "We did not undertake and therefore do not hold" any research looking at how other pupils might be affected by the guidance.

Education Scotland said it did not have any policies itself relating to transgender pupils and therefore "there has been no requirement for Equality Impact Assessments in relation any new or revised policies or procedures regarding transgender and non-binary school children."

The Scottish Government said it had not carried out any equality impact assessments and said the responsibility for carrying them out lay with councils.

Ms Stewart added: "Most of the organisations who have endorsed the LGBT guidance are publicly-funded, which means they have a responsibility to be transparent to the public about their decision making process and the importance of taking into account the risks and equalities of everyone." (continues)

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

See also Times article covering the same:
(extract)
"In a letter to the Scottish government from law firm Balfour+Manson on behalf of the institute, ministers are asked to withdraw the guidance pending further consideration or risk judicial review.

Raising concerns about the shared use of toilets and changing facilities, it states: “For many young people, being forced to use a toilet or changing facilities with trans young people who retain the genitalia of the opposite sex raises a concerning disregard for personal privacy.”

Ciarán Kelly, the institute’s deputy director, said: “It beggars belief that the Scottish government has authorised a state-funded campaign group to dictate to teachers what their obligations are and strip parents of their responsibilities.” (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/legal-battle-over-school-gender-rule-kbjkdnzxd

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 11:21

Scotland's Children's commissioner said: "We did not undertake and therefore do not hold" any research looking at how other pupils might be affected by the guidance.

Surprise surprise.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 27/07/2018 11:39

That statement is in itself an admission of complete and utter negligence.

Bumbungo · 27/07/2018 12:07

"and the Scottish Government have all also backed the LGBT Youth guide."

Actually, the Scottish Government have pulled back from this and said that they have NOT endorsed it and LGBT Youth had to admit they had made an 'error' by including the Scottish Government logo in their endorsed list.

LGBT Youth are also promoting the LGBT Schools Charter, which is being rolled out to schools over Scotland. About 15 or so, so far. Hilariously, they charge about £1250 for this. It's looks like the same kind of branding as the Green Flag stuff.

www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/lgbt-charter/lgbt-schools-charter/

Can't find the list of schools at the moment, but I noticed that it is non-denominational schools that have signed up. There are a large number of Catholic schools in Scotland, particulary in the West of Scotland. If my memory serves me correctly, some of the Senior people (Bishops or whatever) have raised objections to the trans activism politics with regards schools. They are going to have problems there. There are also a few Jewish schools and I think, Islamic schools. How will that work, I wonder.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/07/2018 12:08

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account

This is the huge problem, and I genuinely don't understand why people have forgotten about / are ignoring this.

It is not about including minority groups to the detriment of everyone else, it making sure that everyone is included Confused

averylongtimeasspartacus · 27/07/2018 12:57

If Girlguiding are watching this thread, it will not be to learn.
It will be to identify and then deal with guiders who break their rules.

Over Easter there were several threads on Facebook groups for guide leaders where this issue was discussed. All posts which did not accept the party line of "transgirls ARE girls" were deleted.
This was followed by anyone who had posted such views, either in guiding fb groups, or in a few cases on here, being banned from the supposedly unofficial guiding fb groups.

I have heard from "a reliable source" that this was by request of gghq. Shortly after Agnes was being "investigated" as she has described.
Other leaders are now worried they will be in danger of losing their units and, if they work as a teacher, or for such as the civil service, their jobs. It is sickening.

silentcrow · 27/07/2018 13:10

Other leaders are now worried they will be in danger of losing their units and, if they work as a teacher, or for such as the civil service, their jobs. It is sickening.

How does this not lead to wholesale destruction of Guiding? Leaders are volunteers. Volunteers are very difficult to recruit in general. Who's going to volunteer, or continue to stay, under these conditions? We're already seeing women on this thread saying they won't go back.

I have no particular dog in this fight beyond safeguarding - I hated going to Brownies, my girls have never shown any interest; I know a few leaders but only peripherally - but honestly, I'm just amazed at the lack of care for ACTUAL GIRLS AND WOMEN shown here. And the utter disdain for parents.

drspouse · 27/07/2018 13:11

Rowan we can already keep condoms for over 13s on joint camps but this relies on leaders being aware that there are boys on camp, and ditto parents who must be made aware we have them.

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 13:17

drspouse I would have presumed that was likely the case.

The thread linked was a long & nuanced discussion with Stephen Whittle. There was quite a lot specifically about Girl Guide camps.

stepbystepdoula · 27/07/2018 13:40

Thanks for speaking up Agnes, your logic sounds sensible and appropriate for protecting young girls and female leaders 💚

ImPreCis · 27/07/2018 13:50

Agnus. It was the original thread about GGuiding, and their appalling policies that was my Peak Trans moment. I have PT’d several other people since. Reading about what they are now doing to you has just stirred up all the old anger and incredulity, particularly coming hot on the heels of the new badge on Speaking Out!
You have done wonderful work, and had GGHQ got any sense they would want to keep you close and involved in GGuiding, as once they force you out what is stopping you from going full steam ahead and pushing your knowledge of this nonsensical policy far and wide!
Flowers