Another Girlguiding update

[AgnesBadenPowell]

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

I've been reading this thread with interest and increasing indignation on your behalf Agnus and other leaders like you.
I'm not a GG leader but if I was I would be considering my future with a movement which is happy to throw women and girls under a bus in their haste to be trendy.
I'd also be wondering if I should resign now or wait until the policy directly affected me and compromised safeguarding within my group.

Dear GG

As a former guide and a parent of a little girl I want you to know that I think you are a disgrace

You used to stand for girls, but you have decided to include boys. Telling a girl that the boy sleeping next to her is not a boy at all, does not pose any risk to her, and she should change and shower in front of him as she would any other girl tells her that her boundaries mean nothing. It tells her that if she feels uncomfortable she should suck it up, so as not to hurt the boys feelings. It tells her that she has no right to privacy and in fact is a transphobic bigot if she even thinks any of these things are wrong. If you can’t see how that lays the foundations for a lot of problems then there is no hope for you at all.

You won’t tell parents their girls are sleeping next to boys with penises. You think there is nothing wrong with this, which frankly is one of the worst parts of your absolute safeguarding nightmare.
If girls are struggling with their identity you have chosen not to support them, but to manage them out. What is that telling them? These girls are disproportionately autistic, often gay and feel like they don’t fit in anywhere. You have just made one more place in the world they are not welcome, but you’re happy to welcome boys into that space if they “feel like” a girl.

You are obfuscating, blocking discussion and hounding people with integrity like Agnes, who is only doing what she is doing from a place of deep concern and her love for the Guides. If she didn’t care deeply, she would walk away because who needs this head and heartache as a volunteer? Your appalling behaviour during this sorry mess is truly astonishing. That you continue to believe you are in the right and defend that position, even while you merrily dispense with all current safeguarding advice, shows you for exactly what you are.

You’re not for girls. You’re for boys, and men, and enabling and encouraging male entitlement at the expense of those girls you claim to represent. Shame on you.

To all posting on this thread, it would be hugely beneficial to email GG directly, perhaps their complaints dep. That way, many of us will have proof we warned them of the safeguarding issues. Perhaps copying in the Charities Commission as I think if enough of a fuss is made they will have to re look at the current policy, which confuses sex with gender identity.

If girls are struggling with their identity you have chosen not to support them, but to manage them out. What is that telling them? These girls are disproportionately autistic, often gay and feel like they don’t fit in anywhere. You have just made one more place in the world they are not welcome.

This is so horribly, horribly sad.

Badgerthebodger

Excellent post.

I can readily understand how girl guides might feel under tremendous pressure from trans lobby groups. Lobby groups have, after all, applied pressure just about everywhere.

What I don't understand is the unwillingness to negotiate with Agnes, and other like-minded leaders/parents.

They could say yes, we see the problem, but we're not quite sure what to do.

Get Agnes in, with lawyers and feminist campaign groups, and talk about it. Drill down into what can be done, within the law. Work out some positive press releases.

I understand if they don't want to draw unwelcome attention by being labelled transphobic. But they are already getting a tremendous amount of bad press and publicity for the opposite stance.

They either completely agree that girls are second-class and are happy to sell them out, or they're not being very smart, in my opinion.

Happydappy- good advice - and if you do so you will discover, as I have done, that GG’s response after two emails from me is that they can see we don’t agree with each other and therefore they will not be replying to any further emails from me.

They are absolute sell-outs. They are selling out Muslim girls, autistic girls, GNC girls, girls who are thinking they might be trans and in fact all girls. I loved and supported the guiding movement all my life and this breaks my heart. But refusing to even engage with people is an unbelievable step.

When I was a young teen we had a mixed camping out (bivouacking) session. There was about 15 of us and both male and female teachers. I slept beside my male bodied and female bodied classmates. I woke up with my feet on one boy in our sleeping bags. There was no ‘sexual undercurrent’ or male intimidation at play. We were kids and knew what was expected of us. It was wonderfully free to be able to experience the freedom of bivouacking with the boys too. No hysterical undercurrent about us needing to be separated for our safety and modesty. And these were boys, not even comparable to trans girls.

As a girl guide I would have had zero issue with trans members, we simply didn’t have any. In sleepout situations or otherwise. A young trans girl deserves better respect and acceptance from you.

Good for you, Hideandgo, but you don’t get to say, that because there was no sexual misconduct in your situation, then it will never happen. Girls have the right to a Male free environment, where they are at less risk of being abused.

Cool story.

Hideandgo that is good for you but utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

Guides are suspending normal safeguarding practices in certain circumstances and concealing this from parents. They are actively silencing and even disciplining those who want to talk about this.

Why are you trying to distract from this?

Also any male who wanted to could 'self-id' into this safeguarding loophole.

Massive alarm bells should be ringing and the obvious glaring problems with guides culture, approach and actual policies.

Hideandgo
You seem to have missed the point here. Your experience is of a mixed sex trip. GG is supposed to be a single sex organisation. There's a difference between knowingly sharing accommodation with the opposite sex and finding out you are doing so when you are expecting single sex accommodation.

Just because you were comfortable with sharing accommodation with males doesn't mean that all girls will be, or that their parents will accept this arrangement. This might prevent some girls from taking part. Such girls also deserve respect and acceptance and should not be excluded to make way for boys.

Wow, Hideandgo, you’re so, like, progressive and accepting.

Unfortunately, GG’s own research found that 59% of girls have experienced sexual harassment at school and 75% say anxiety about experiencing sexual harassment negatively affects their lives in some way

This will be hard for you to understand but, when faced with sharing accommodation with males, not all girls will feel the same way you did

She won't reply. Because she doesn't care about women and girls and she doesn't have a single decent argument as to why we should relax child safeguarding.

I agree that it’s very important to publicly discuss what GGUK Trustees are doing. Parents and volunteers need to know what is going on.

However from a charity governance point of view I don’t think GGUK can hold on to this policy (unless the equality act 2010 is changed) without changing GGUK’s legally registered charitable objects (which have always been to help women and girls).

And even if GGUK Trustees DID change the beneficiaries to include boys and men- which I’d like to think would be in the teeth of enormous opposition because Scouts already provide a mixed sex space- then GGUK would STILL have to resolve the glaring safeguarding issues that this policy causes. Eg by recommending housing Male and female bodied adults and children in the same space (and specifically saying it is NOT good practice to be informing parents of this when it is happening). This is against safeguarding good practice.

So it is important to write to GGUK about these points to add to the voices who have already done so. I think it’s also important to copy in the Charity Commission who have told all charities to make sure that their house is in order on safeguarding issues within 12 months of December 2017.

Regulatory attention is firmly on safeguarding at the moment, the Equality Act 2010 still stands, so sex IS STILL a protected characteristic, and GGUK Trustees are not above the law, however much they might wish the law was different.

Hideandgo did you also have to strip naked in front of those boys in a communal shower block?

Excellent Hideandgo. You've nailed the way we make laws and safeguarding protocols in this country.

The 'I've never been burgled, so we need to dispense with house insurance' school of thought.

Quite Datun .

Like the Scottish sleeper train boss who said self-id for single sex cabins was fine because all their customers are trustworthy.

Why check tickets then?

It's always the same.

I had no problems, therefore you should ignore any woman or girl who does.

I'm at a loss to understand why the people saying this think they are the open minded compassionate ones...

.Like the Scottish sleeper train boss who said self-id for single sex cabins was fine because all their customers are trustworthy.

Why check tickets then?

Indeed. And that's exactly how it works in schools.

They all line up, and the person with a clipboard ticks them off asking are you a paedophile? If they say no, then they don't need a DBS check.

Simples.

Well if guiding isn't going to be honest with parents about it now being a mixed biological sex organisation, with poor safeguarding procedures, then we need to keep putting the word out there. I wouldn't let my girls join a so called women's organisation that does not have girls best interests and safeguarding at the heart of it.

This trusting people idea is going to save a fortune in admin.

No passports needed we'll take it in trust.

No driving licence.

This cost-cutting could save post-Brexit Britain!

If I run into some random wearing a white coat with an "Official Breast Inspector" tshirt underneath who am I to say he's not a real doctor?

I'm at a loss to understand why the people saying this think they are the open minded compassionate ones...

It's always good when they show who they are in their own words.

I think gg has poor business sense.
Gg is a low cost traditional activity run in church halls. I have always supported the scout movement and I was delighted dd1 wanted to go but if similar comes along without all this trans bollocks I'll think nothing of moving g her. She's my child it's my decision. I won't be the only parent who feels like this. I'll take my money elsewhere.

Meanwhile this not telling the parents thing. I know all the girls in dd1 unit half of them are in her class and the others we have got to know. Units are small