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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
boatyardblues · 27/07/2018 14:49

as once they force you out what is stopping you from going full steam ahead and pushing your knowledge of this nonsensical policy far and wide!

So true!

DodoPatrol · 27/07/2018 15:03

I think I might ask my mum's Trefoil Guild what they've heard about this so far. They have several centuries of relevant experience between them.

LemonJello · 02/08/2018 19:16

I had a response from GG. It is very interesting.

I asked about their very strict policy for male children of leaders going on residential trips and for this in response (bolding mine)

we do allow volunteers’ family members to attend residential events. Such requests are carefully considered by the local commissioner and as a part of the mandatory risk assessment or any trips. However this same process would not apply to a trans girl as this would be a breach of the Equality Act.

They are saying that the Equality Act legally prevents them from carrying out safeguarding procedures.

LemonJello · 02/08/2018 19:16

Building fail Blush

LemonJello · 02/08/2018 19:16

Bolding! Argh!

Beamur · 02/08/2018 19:22

Will you ask them how it is a breach?
Could you also tell them about the position of Freemasons (can't ask a transwoman to leave if she joined as a man) and ask them how their policy of asking transboys to leave - as arguably they are protected as an exemption from the EA - is now tenable, as I don't think it is.

LemonJello · 02/08/2018 19:28

I think they consider it a breach because of his which they also wrote:

“Our guidelines comply with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender.”

Yes I will definitely be asking them how the Freemasons, an organisation which perpetuates the advancement and domination of men in public life, manage to be single sex, while GG, an organisation which aims to mitigate said domination, does not. Hmm

LeiaTheSlaya · 02/08/2018 19:30

Lemon, that is just bizarre. Saying you are trans suddenly renders you above safeguarding? Wonder how that stacks up in light of the situation the NUS are currently dealing with? And isn't the outgoing CEO of GG connected to the NUS CEO? Maybe they all want to rethink that legal advice that they say prevents safeguarding procedures being followed.

Why oh why do these woke idiots ignore basic safeguarding rules the minute trans is mentioned? This is definitely an abusers wet dream charter.

MissSusanSays · 02/08/2018 19:33

LemonJello

Well done you! I can’t believe that they don’t think the safeguarding aspect is important. How is a thirteen year old boy (child of a leader) any different to a transgirl who has only socially transitioned and is attracted to girls?

Both are vulnerable adolescents. But one is being told that she is a girl and that her gentitals are female and is therefore a risk to themselves and the girls in their ignorance.

Ereshkigal · 02/08/2018 19:48

They are saying that the Equality Act legally prevents them from carrying out safeguarding procedures.

FFS.

PerspicaciaTick · 02/08/2018 19:49

I am surprised that GG's equality and diversity policy does not list sex as a protected characteristic. Perhaps this is why they feel unable or unwilling to adequately protect the girls in their care.

TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld · 02/08/2018 19:54

If GG believes that they are being prevented from carrying out the risk assessments that they would absolutely carry out in all other circumstances why on earth are they themselves not up in arms about that? Are they mad?

As for the idea that the Equalities Act removes their safeguarding obligations (I'm pretty sure it doesn't even mention them, let alone remove them) .... you have to wonder where on earth GG are getting their "advice", that they are getting themselves in such a pickle.

Procrastinator1 · 02/08/2018 19:58

Agnes named the solicitors GG were getting their advice from in a previous thread.

LeiaTheSlaya · 02/08/2018 19:59

Who is it that has ultimate governance over Girl Guides? Is it the charities commission? I think asking them to look into a charity organisation that has changed its purpose (single sex to mixed sex) and also as a result they also are of the view that they cannot follow safeguarding procedures - that's surely worth looking at? I'm also sure their liability insurers would need to be made aware of this alarming situation.

Utter idiots.

Beamur · 02/08/2018 20:05

I can sort of see the logic that the EA means you cannot discrimate against someone undergoing transition. But, I think I would argue that their wider advice to Leaders about how to accommodate this needs addressing. I would also be flagging up the current allegations about the NUS official and the reports from the Prisons Service about the behaviours of some transwomen and the risks this potentially could present.
What safeguards will there be against perverts abusing this way into Guides to get alongside young girls?
I think I'd also be asking how they will be letting parents know that on large scale camps with multiple units attending that both Leaders and Guides may include both women and transwomen. I would imagine at unit level, even if Leaders were discreet, the chances of the girls not realising one of their Leaders or fellow Guides was trans is non existent.

Seeingadistance · 02/08/2018 20:10

I've been following this discussion but not participating as I've never been involved in Guiding.

I do, however, know a couple of women who are involved in Guiding, one of whom is at a very high level in Scotland. What is the relationship between Guiding UK and Guiding in Scotland? Do the Scottish Guides have to follow UK decisions in matters like this?

LeiaTheSlaya · 02/08/2018 20:14

It isn't discrimination to separate children of one sex from the other for the purpose of safeguarding though, is it? If it involves overnight stays, children undressing & washing etc. it is absolutely necessary for the safeguarding of all children to do so. For their privacy, dignity & safety.

Agnes had detailed her recent experience at the top of this thread and makes clear why that safeguarding matters.

LeiaTheSlaya · 02/08/2018 20:16

I think it's the same Seeing, so might well be worth a discussion with your friend to see what their take on this is.

drspouse · 02/08/2018 20:20

Seeing same organisation.
Beamur everybody has done that.
We could mention e.g. an individual whose behaviour was risky to themselves or others in a risk assessment (if not by name e.g. girl at risk of running off)
So there is nothing to prevent individual risk assessments for members with other protected characteristics like SEN.

Beamur · 02/08/2018 20:27

I'm a relatively new Leader myself and my DD is a Guide too - hence my interest.
I've raised this with the other Leaders in my unit, one is very supportive of the GG policy on this and doesn't want really to talk about it or question it, but has said to me that if I'm bothered I should raise it personally - but she wouldn't support me as a unit concern.

NoSquirrels · 02/08/2018 23:24

the EA means you cannot discrimate against someone undergoing transition

But can minors transition? This is a child safeguarding issue, isn't it?

The EA says, of single-sex services:

If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

How restricted are the circumstances, I guess is the question.

For Girl Guiding, I think the wider question is why is it so important to allow trans girls (born male) to access their service which is provided for women-only, when a similar unisex organisation already exists for boys and girls, in Scouting.

JoanSummers · 02/08/2018 23:31

Don't you have to be over 18 to be protected under EA gender reassignment?

LeiaTheSlaya · 02/08/2018 23:34

For Girl Guiding, I think the wider question is why is it so important to allow trans girls (born male) to access their service which is provided for women-only, when a similar unisex organisation already exists for boys and girls, in Scouting.

JoanSummers · 02/08/2018 23:36

" A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

As it is not possible to change "physiological or other attributes of sex" I don't see how this could apply to anyone at all tbh.

LeiaTheSlaya · 02/08/2018 23:37

Sorry posted too soon - meant to add - yes, the agenda behind targeting guides needs to be uncovered. I'd love to see the timeline on this, when it was 1st introduced, by whom, who sought the legal advice that tells GG they cannot risk assess trans identified children or adults FFS, and who gave them that advice.