Sex by deception

[RepeatAfterUs]

Following on from an earlier thread I this point below is in LGBT Labour's manifesto (thanks bd67th who linked)

Point 14: Review the law relating to legal issues of consent to rape and sexual offences to 'sex by deception' in order to remove potential discrimination and criminalisation of trans/gender variant people....

Now I might have heatstroke and I'm not 100% sure what that's saying...

However-Sec 74 Sexual Offences Act talks about consent and consent is:
Agreeing by choice
Freedom to choose (no duress or threats)
To have made a reasoned, informed decision
ALL ELEMENTS MUST BE PRESENT

I think the manifesto is taking issue with the last point-"informed". And consent applies to all sexual activity not just rape. So for instance a lesbian has a sexual encounter with a TW who doesn't disclose that they are a TW so the lesbian thinks it's another woman. Did the lesbian consent to sexual activity with a male? No. So the sexual activity would be an assault on the lesbian.

I think they want to over turn this protection which is pretty sick IMO

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/lgbtlabour/pages/223/attachments/original/1446055384/Securing_Trans_Equality_(October_2015).pdf?1446055384

I think there was a case in Israel where an Israeli Arab was charged and convicted of raping a Jewish woman because he presented himself as Jewish to her.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186

Virginity? Why is that more important than an unexpected set of genitals?

I am glad to see attitudes toward intimate contact through deception shifting away from celebrating it as manly achievement to finally recognizing it as unethical and in some cases criminal.
Informed consent requires information be shared.
I am not surprised that transgender advocates cannot see, or refuse to look, beyond their own personal interests in this matter.

Your suggestion that lying about virginity should be a criminal offence is one of the most offensive comments I've ever read on here

Once again i agree with lass

Disgusting...

I think there's an element of uncertainty with sperm donation though. I agree you would feel violated and used but I don't see it as the same as pretending you are the opposite sex. Not averse to penalties where appropriate for other people who deliberately deceive others to have sex but I think pretending you're another sex is on a different level and so would most people.

I am not surprised that transgender advocates cannot see, or refuse to look, beyond their own personal interests in this matter.

I wish I was surprised, because selfishness at that level is always depressing.

I can't pretend to be a virgin. I've had children and the existence of those children and their effect on my body which cannot be hidden when naked, means I can't pretend to be a virgin.

But a transwoman can.

Actually mind blown.

Yes erish the infertility one is fucking stupid as well

Though completely on board with the marital status one

The implications of this are troubling and, frankly, downright sinister.

So it either should go or be extended to cover marital status (definitely a biggie for many people), virgin or not (hugely important in some religions), known infertility (important to anyone wanting kids), infectious diseases like HIV and so on. All those things are just as important to informed consent - some more so.~}

I think it's clear what Snappity wants.

That comment is an excellent example of why I'm choosing not to engage with Snappity any more. I'm not qualified to deal with that level of detachment from reality.

(We need a shorthand for this, like IANAL but for mental health issues.)

Was it Snappity who on another thread said the reason a TW should disclose their trans status was to protect the ego of a man who may be upset because he didn’t impregnate her?
I think it was, although which version of Gollum, I mean Snapity it was I don’t know.

Hotrocker of course it was.

I took it to mean they were hoping to introduce a lesser offence of sex by deception rather than rape/sexual assault.

It would already be rape etc if you didn't disclose and the person found out after you weren't the sex they thought you were.

It's as clear as mud. I like the way they are asking for CPS guidelines in plain English "yeah like your manifesto"

Telling tho that it's acknowledged that people are having to deceive others i.e. what Confessions said. If TW were women and TM were men there wouldn't be any confusion or need for deception right?!?

The "proving it" thing is an interesting one.

I think Snappity means "how would a transwoman prove they told a woman they had a penis?" (Since women would lie of course.)

My question would be, since women can't actual prove real demonstrable rapes, how would they prove that "X didn't said they had a penis, but turns out they but did"?

The implications of this are troubling and, frankly, downright sinister.

Indeed. This sort of thing has hitherto been confined to the deepest, dankest corners of inceldom and 4chan. Most troubling to see it make its way to the mainstream and who is supporting it. Male supremacist ideologies are unpleasant things at the best of times but there are times when it's nigh on impossible not to do a bit of sick in your mouth at the things deemed "reasonable".

Sorry - so if a person lies about virginity (because they were raped perhaps? Who knows? Do they do that a lot?) then they should go to jail - because that's the equivalent of "gave someone aids"?

I think you're confusing belief systems ("I want an untouched woman!") and physical violation ("I don't want a penis inside me!")

But I think the response to that is telling. If it is those trans people who have to disclose that's OK, but if informed consent starts applying to other women suddenly it is offensive. That's a massive double standard.

Bollocks

Not a double standard at all, we all agree that HIV and diseases should be disclosed

I said marital status was a good one

Im allowed to say that the virginity one is a dumb one

Doesnt make me fucking anti trans

You like raspberry jam and i like strawberry...that doesnt make me transphobic either

Not agreeing with everything snappity says doesnt make someone transphobic

It is however a useful life skill to learn to recognize male supremacy when it's attempting to disguise itself as something more benign.

The right of everyone to refuse unwanted sex is important and should not be diluted in law.

MRA rhetoric on a feminist forum. How um... [redacted].

So do I have to declare my virginity before I have sex with someone, or is the not declaring a crime?

How is that equivalent to not declaring medical status that would give me a life changing disease?

I’d be happy to throw a bone and tell all one night stands I was infertile (if only to see how many were terrified and how many happy to have another layer of contraception) if it didn’t play into the mae coercion of denying the very difference between me as a female and a trans person.

The right of everyone to refuse unwanted sex is important and should not be diluted in law.

Exactly. And only subscribers to MRA ideology say different.

I have real sympathy for some trans people, but I do want the right to know before I consent to any sexual activity. I’m not saying they would have to tell on the first date because weighing up my right to know and theirs to a degree of privacy, but when it gets to violation territory I absolutely have a right to know. As potential partner may or may not choose to withdraw their consent but that’s just life. In the same way that women (and men) and withdraw consent for any tiny reason they feel like. It doesn’t have to be fair. That’s sort of the point of consent, it’s an absolute right.