Sex by deception

[RepeatAfterUs]

Following on from an earlier thread I this point below is in LGBT Labour's manifesto (thanks bd67th who linked)

Point 14: Review the law relating to legal issues of consent to rape and sexual offences to 'sex by deception' in order to remove potential discrimination and criminalisation of trans/gender variant people....

Now I might have heatstroke and I'm not 100% sure what that's saying...

However-Sec 74 Sexual Offences Act talks about consent and consent is:
Agreeing by choice
Freedom to choose (no duress or threats)
To have made a reasoned, informed decision
ALL ELEMENTS MUST BE PRESENT

I think the manifesto is taking issue with the last point-"informed". And consent applies to all sexual activity not just rape. So for instance a lesbian has a sexual encounter with a TW who doesn't disclose that they are a TW so the lesbian thinks it's another woman. Did the lesbian consent to sexual activity with a male? No. So the sexual activity would be an assault on the lesbian.

I think they want to over turn this protection which is pretty sick IMO

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/lgbtlabour/pages/223/attachments/original/1446055384/Securing_Trans_Equality_(October_2015).pdf?1446055384

TacoLover clearly what happened to you was wrong and terrible and I am sorry that you expereinced that and did not get justice That is unforgiveable. It is also wrong to deliberately deceive someone to gain sexual access to their body whoch they would otherwise not give. Crimes vary in method and severity but are all judged to be wrong. Gaining sex by decpetion is wrong.

How much money you have, whether you are married, if you are a virgin, how many sexual partners you have had - all apply to whether you want to enter a relationship with someone. Not sex. You don't stop wanting to have sex with someone because they have less money in the bank or because they are married. You might make a conscious decision not to enter a sexual relationship with a married man based on your own moral compass, but it doesn't change the fact that you fancy them and want to have sex with them

I don't completely agree here. I am living proof that it becomes possible to stop wanting to have sex with someone because they were married. Lies are deeply unattractive to many people. And the truth being revealed can kill both love and lust stone dead.

We can all draw the line exactly where we want to and for any reason regardless of what anyone else thinks. I thnk it is really important that we uphold that right, and think it should be protected more in law, especially because it sends a strong message to men about women's boundaries being non-violable.

Sardines there is no "grey area" when it comes to disclosing sex prior or sexual acts if one is a transperson as trying to be the opposite sex. The onus is on them to declare not to dupe someone about something so fundmantal as which sex they are. Likewise HIV status etc.

The main premise being if you have reason to believe that sharing information you hold would lead the person to refuse sex or sexual acts, then you must disclose otherwise you have not gained informed consent. Basic human decency and honesty and respect requires this.

Even "buyer beware" which Lass seems to be advocating, does not protect sellers from the consequences of making fraudulent claims or deals made in bad faith.

I find it insidious that any person would want to roll this back.

And in the present climate it would be almost impossible to get a satisfactory answer from some trans people. If you asked a TWwhothinnkstheyarearealwoman, if they are a real woman, they they would say "yes". Then if you said "yes, but are you a biological woman" they may also say yes as they believe they were born female with female penis. This does not meet most people heterosexual or biological defintions and is entirely confusing and misleading. To allow such gaslighting to be made legal is abhorrent.

And if you were 'found out' by a man after answering that you were a real woman (but witholding that you have a female penis) then I am not suprised at all that it may be met with violence. (men tending to be violent and all that) but it is truly awful, abusive behaviour.

I can honeslty say that if somehow it were done to me that if the deciever was in my personal space at that time there is a good chance that I would physically lash out in a self defensive 'get off me' way out of shock and anger. I am sure that any lesbian doing that would land them in big trouble with some of the raging transwomen types.

How do you know if the TW knows this other woman is a lesbian?

How is that relevant?

The person might be bi or just wondering what sex with a woman might be like.

Even "buyer beware" which Lass seems to be advocating, does not protect sellers from the consequences of making fraudulent claims or deals made in bad faith

I was stating the law- not advocating anything. The law is that other than the exceptions we have discussed you are making a choice to have sex with the person there with you on the basis of what you see.

TacoLover, I assumed you were male because women tend to assume a significant number of any other women she was interacting with had been raped/sexually assaulted.

Plus you said what I went through was dismissed by the authorities, which most women would have assumed was likely and predictable, whereas you sound surprised.

I didn't report either of my rapes. The first because I was 17 and in a country where I didn't speak the language very well, the second because I had a realistic view of how the police deal with rape.

You say: Personally I don't consider lack of knowledge about the other's genitals a lack of consent - it's not up to you to decide what qualifies as consent. And I wonder if you would be quite so sanguine if it happened to you.

To equate your consent to sex with DH if you knew he'd called you a bitch with another woman's consent to sex with someone who's not the sex they're representing themselves to be is to trivialise what is a serious rapey deception.

"How is that relevant?

The person might be bi or just wondering what sex with a woman might be like."

Because if the TW knew for a fact that they were a lesbian then they would know for definite that they wanted female anatomy. Then if they tried to continue then they would be deliberately misleading them I.e. committing sexual assault. But if they don't know the sexual orientation then how can they be misleading them? They don't know what sex they are attracted to; the obvious and sensible thing would be to ask, but it doesn't mean that the TW is committing sexual assault if they don't.

Tbh I'm pretty sure most TW know that they don't 'pass' to others. I'm sure they're painfully aware that they still appear to be their biological sex, that's where their dysphoria comes from isn't it? So they probably assume that any woman willing to have sex with them knows that they are male.

lass seemed like ' buyer beware' was what you meant when you said

A sexually transmissable disease is not self - evident but beyond that anyone contemplating having sex should make their mind up on the basis of what they see before them. If the single, Christian, multi- millionaire turns out to be an unemployed, atheist, married job-seeker with a poor credit history - tough luck. Do your due diligence a bit more thoroughly if it's important to you.

Due diligence is one thing but people are still under a duty to disclose and not to lie by omiision of otherwise, and if someone is determined to deceive then they can do quite a good job of that. Have you never been taken in by anyone? Jees, it is difficult enough when choosing plumbers!!!

it's not up to you to decide what qualifies as consent.
I know, that's why I said personally

I just think that we're talking about a miniscule number of cases here; it doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it, but how many women do you really think there are that wouldn't realise that the person they're having sex with has a penis

Really Taco you are twisting things. Being trans, pre-op or post-op is not the default expression of human sexuality and neither is being bisexual. That is the only assumption a trans person can make about their potential partner (if they don't know anything else about them) and so based on that, they have a duty to disclose.

Consent about sex is about people being clearly, enthustically and freely consenting to do certain things, not relying on drink or drug or ambiguity to help them get their end away.

Can you imagine a situation where every biological woman had to be seriously asked if they were 'a real biological woman and not trans in any way.. and I mean don't have a penis' just for the avoidance of doubt, if it becomes increasingly common for trans people to feel that they can keep their trans status a secret in all situations.

It should be a given that if you are trying to pass as the opposite sex, then you bloody well say so. And how else can they be accepted for who they really are?

Due diligence is one thing but people are still under a duty to disclose and not to lie by omiision of otherwise, and if someone is determined to deceive then they can do quite a good job of that. Have you never been taken in by anyone? Jees, it is difficult enough when choosing plumbers!!!

I was being facetious by referring to "due diligence " but the fact is other than the exceptions which have been discussed your choice to have sex with someone and your consent to doing so is based on what you see before you.

That is sensible- we have seen absurd examples (millionaire/ virgin/ has travelled in Concorde)

What "duty to disclose" do you think applies? And I mean in law- not " but he told me he was rich/ but she me she was a virgin?"

If you are only interested in people with a particular set of genitals (as most of the population are) then in order to consent, you have to know if the genitals of a new partner are possibly going to come as a surprise as they don't match fully clothed appearances.
Full disclosure before any intimacy is vital.

What you say would have not only uncontroversial but universally accepted less than a decade ago, Voice0fReason.

We're aware of trans ideology because we've been down the rabbit hole. But I imagine most people in the mainstream would be baffled and angered by the idea that men can become female by no more than an effort of will.

How do you know if the TW knows this other woman is a lesbian?

Some trans actively seek out lesbians, it's a form of validation for them. See my addition to the cotton ceiling evidence thread.