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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Sex by deception

162 replies

RepeatAfterUs · 15/07/2018 18:09

Following on from an earlier thread I this point below is in LGBT Labour's manifesto (thanks bd67th who linked)

Point 14: Review the law relating to legal issues of consent to rape and sexual offences to 'sex by deception' in order to remove potential discrimination and criminalisation of trans/gender variant people....

Now I might have heatstroke and I'm not 100% sure what that's saying...

However-Sec 74 Sexual Offences Act talks about consent and consent is:
Agreeing by choice
Freedom to choose (no duress or threats)
To have made a reasoned, informed decision
ALL ELEMENTS MUST BE PRESENT

I think the manifesto is taking issue with the last point-"informed". And consent applies to all sexual activity not just rape. So for instance a lesbian has a sexual encounter with a TW who doesn't disclose that they are a TW so the lesbian thinks it's another woman. Did the lesbian consent to sexual activity with a male? No. So the sexual activity would be an assault on the lesbian.

I think they want to over turn this protection which is pretty sick IMO

d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/lgbtlabour/pages/223/attachments/original/1446055384/Securing_Trans_Equality_(October_2015).pdf?1446055384

OP posts:
Original poster
RepeatAfterUs · 15/07/2018 18:09

I'm shit at IT can some one make it click

OP posts:
Imchlibob · 15/07/2018 18:17

clicky link downloads pdf doc.

That's horrific.

Does the previous section to the one mentioned in the OP also provides that trans people should not have any obligation to disclose their gender history to their spouse if they marry post-transition?

stillathing · 15/07/2018 18:24

See leaving trans issues aside, I think that is an area of the law that needs strengthening. I'm thinking of the police officers who had relationships whilst undercover and really anybody who has relationships involving sex where they do not disclose for instance that they are already married. The fact something is not disclosed implies they know the other person would not consent if they knew the truth.

HotRocker · 15/07/2018 18:26

I’m confused, is it suggesting a lesser offence for not disclosing trans status before engaging in intercourse, although presumably it would still be illegal? Or is this in all cases? If not all cases how would it work with non transpeople? I mean presumedly the sex of a person you are having sex with should be pretty obvious, and if they don’t identify as trans, or aren’t pretending to be the sex of person that they actually are, it wouldn’t count. So extrapolating from that, I can only take it to mean that they want a lesser offence for what is effectively rape for transpeople. Does that sound right or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

IAmLurkacus · 15/07/2018 18:29

That’s horrific, agree with stillathing 100%

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 15/07/2018 18:43

Isn't this the snake eating its tail again? If trans women are actually women (despite the presence of a penis) then how can it be deception? They're the sex they say they are and no one can argue with them.

However if they're planning to change the law specifically to deal with trans men/women they are effectively admitting that trans men/women are NOT actually men/women and that passing themselves off as the opposite sex is deceptive.

Snappity · 15/07/2018 18:43

This reply has been deleted

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FlippinFumin · 15/07/2018 18:49

It is shit, yet another way that men can rape women with impunity.

Fucking shit.

Gronky · 15/07/2018 18:54

At what stage in a relationship should an individual disclose their gender (and whether they are trans or not) to their potential partner?

It's a question I've never come up with a satisfactory answer for and the only answers I've heard have been from trans activists who invariably seem to say that it either shouldn't be an issue at all or that the bedroom is the correct place (neither of which I agree with).

Floorplan · 15/07/2018 18:59

ConfessionsOf

well spotted, either sex is in your head or in your biology, they cant have it both ways

LassWiADelicateAir · 15/07/2018 18:59

infectious diseases like HIV and so on. All those things are just as important to informed consent

Already covered.

How the law works | Terrence Higgins Trust
www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/living-well-hiv/legal-issues/how-law-works

Your suggestion that lying about virginity should be a criminal offence is one of the most offensive comments I've ever read on here.

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 19:03

Agree Lass. I am boggling at that.

Ereshkigal · 15/07/2018 19:04

And "known infertility".

Abouttoblow · 15/07/2018 19:05

Snappity
I really wish you would give up with the anti-trans rhetoric. Not just on this topic but in general.
Just because you don't agree does not make it anti-trans
Are there actually anti-trans laws or
anti-trans rights?
No, just laws and rights that you don't like.

Just like the lesbian protesters at Pride last week were just that, lesbians. Not anti-trans protesters.

It's really getting fucking tedious now.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/07/2018 19:06

How about we strengthen rather than weaken laws around consent, eh?

At what stage in a relationship should an individual disclose their gender (and whether they are trans or not) to their potential partner?

Before any sort of sexual intimacy happens, at the very least. Ethical people generally share potential dealbreakers right from the outset.

ScipioAfricanus · 15/07/2018 19:07

Known infertility - is not related to sexual orientation or attraction and therefore not necessary to disclose to someone before having sex. A completely different issue.

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 15/07/2018 19:09

The sinister way its all happening is very much of the boiled frog analogy.

LassWiADelicateAir · 15/07/2018 19:10

And "known infertility".

Yes - that is ridiculous too.

Gronky · 15/07/2018 19:11

@Ereshkigal not to lessen the offensiveness of the virginity comment but I can see how known infertility (for either partner) might be used in a deceptive capacity if the encounter is predicated on an expectation of pregnancy.

Imagine, for example, how violated a woman might feel if, under the guise of natural insemination for sperm donation, a 'donor' who'd had a vasectomy used her repeatedly for sexual pleasure, knowing that they were never going to fulfill their part of the arrangement.

AngryAttackKittens · 15/07/2018 19:13

I mean, you could also argue that what if the proposed sexual partner was a lizard alien like the ones in V and wasn't disclosing that he and his friends intended to eat all of us, but perhaps sticking to the scenarios that are relevant and likely might be more useful.

duckfuckduck · 15/07/2018 19:13

Sigh.

ScipioAfricanus · 15/07/2018 19:15

Likelihood of infertility being relevant in a sexual encounter which wasn’t repeated and where it wasn’t being discussed as a matter of course (e.g. long term relationship) is extremely low. Of course like any other disclosure it relies on human decency in terms of when you would choose to make it.

Gronky · 15/07/2018 19:16

@AngryAttackKittens, sperm donation though natural insemination is a well documented phenomenon that is already being abused.

HotRocker · 15/07/2018 19:16

Yeah the virginity thing is pretty offensive actually.