FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

That golf analogy really misses the point.

[Deathgrip]

Wait, you asserted that kidneys change sex (!) and when asked to prove this, you suggested a book that you haven’t read which may cover it?

This is what actually happens when a trans person is assessed for kidney failure, and sex is an important element of that calculation: clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/clinchem/63/11/1680.full.pdf

This article contains more information on the case: lascapigliata8.wordpress.com/2018/04/29/transgenderism-and-unethical-medicine/

You have to understand that there are very real medical considerations here, which are being silenced because biological reality hurts peoples’ feelings. That is unacceptable and we don’t accept it from any other area.

[MaterialReality]

No I am saying that having one or two people saying it is free speech but when so many say it that it shouts down any reasonable opposition that that is oppressive.

By that logic, all the one-sided threads on AIBU are 'oppressive.' Only one or two people are allowed to say YABU. Other people agreeing with them after that? Not allowed. (unless a sufficient number of people have said YANBU first, for balance?)

[R0wantrees]

Can you please provide evidence that a kidney changes sex? The recent case in the USA where a transman ended up in stage four kidney failure because they were using the male reference ranges for kidney function would seem to argue against this.

Dr Az Hakeem edited and wrote the introductory chapters in 'Trans: Exploring gender identity and gender dysphoria- A Guide for everyone (Including proffessionals). This was published recently. He defines clearly sex and gender.

"This book, the first of its kind, presents an easy-to-read, jargon-free guide to help anyone understand the terminology, the concept and the day-to-day reality of gender dysphoria and related concepts.

TRANS is a book for everyone - insightful enough for professionals, but accessible enough for all. Put simply, TRANS explains what gender dysphoria is, how it affects people, and what is available, medically and psychotherapeutically to support people with gender dysphoria."

source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Since 2016 there has been a twelvefold increase in people accessing MN through FWR.

That doesn’t include people who land in via other boards then visit.

This is important stuff and people want to discuss it. The overwhelming tone is not anti trans it’s pro woman and pro child safety.

[R0wantrees]

The overwhelming tone is not anti trans it’s pro woman and pro child safety.

Current important thread identifying systemic safeguarding failings:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

[MyAuntyBadger]

I think your problem is that you have a partner who tells you what you can read in your free time. Good luck.

[Snappity]

Also hilarious that daimbars believes there is a GC bias in moderation.

Every time someone misgenders a trans person individually or collectively that is transphobia. Every time someone says that trans people cannot change sex although the Gender Recognition Act is clear that they can, that is transphobia.

Every time someone says women = XX or reproductive capacity / role, that is interphobia.

But, although transphobia is banned, there's no point reporting posts like that because they won't be deleted. So, yes, I understand why Daim thinks that Talk Guidelines aren't being enforced fully against gender critical posts.

[daimbars]

Since 2016 there has been a twelvefold increase in people accessing MN through FWR.

I imagine because there have been lots of news articles about the transphobia so people have come to look for themselves.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Thanks deathgrip

Interesting to note that exogenous testosterone worsens CKD. Clearly this is something where guidelines will need to be established to ensure that transgender patients get good medical care.

And that means impartial assessment - free from ideology and concentrating purely on the health of the patient to establish how things like kidney disease etc are best managed. Medics cannot be worried that they’re going to be called phobic if they are just trying to treat patients according to best practice. We can’t have that - people will be injured, or die, or receive substandard care.

[kesstrel]

On hormones trans women develop breasts and trans men develop facial hair, male patten baldness and their voice breaks. All changes in attributes of sex. Biological sex isn't binary. It is a categorisation based on several attributes of sex and consequently biological sex can and does change. That's the science.

Snappity is engaging in the Fallacy of Composition here.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

[busyboysmum]

I'm afraid you don't get to come onto a forum and demand everyone changes their opinion to fit your own.

We have freedom of speech in this country at the moment. People are still allowed to discuss areas of concern to them. It seems that feminist women are very concerned about this issue at the moment.

These are all educated intelligent articulate women. You don't get to tell women what to do or what to say. We make up our own minds.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

I imagine because there have been lots of news articles about the transphobia

Examples of transphobia please?

Correcting poor science, stating biological truths, and trying to uphold the law as pertains to sex segregated spaces - are these transphobic actions?

[duckfuckduck]

So according to Snappity, discussion centred around women’s actual biology and biological sex, is just a game (golf)?

[Snappity]

By that logic, all the one-sided threads on AIBU are 'oppressive.' Only one or two people are allowed to say YABU. Other people agreeing with them after that? Not allowed. (unless a sufficient number of people have said YANBU first, for balance?)

But that is a single thread. The anti-trans material is across dozens of threads with more added every day.

And gender reassignment is a protected characteristic which makes it different.

To put it into gc-speak, trans people are being erased by the sheer volume of anti-trans material.

[R0wantrees]

Since 2016 there has been a twelvefold increase in people accessing MN through FWR.

I imagine because there have been lots of news articles about the transphobia so people have come to look for themselves.

See the responses of some of the people who came, looked and thought for themselves:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291425-Gender-Critical-Lurkers

[KataraJean]

Rowantrees I have just ordered that book, it looks good and the author seems very experienced. This is a subject which will come up more at work, so I want to be well-informed. Thank you for the reference.

[daimbars]

I know R0wantrees - so many people who hadn't given trans people a second thought are now turning on them.

GC feminists think this is great, I'm not convinced.

[Deathgrip]

Every time someone says that trans people cannot change sex although the Gender Recognition Act is clear that they can, that is transphobia.

A few years ago I constantly saw people accused of incorrectly conflating sex and gender by trans activists. Now they don’t seem to know the difference themselves.

It’s a GENDER Recognition Certificate / Act for a reason. Gender is a social construct (and clearly a bloody harmful one), so you can change genders. Stating that one cannot fundamentally change their chromosomes through drugs and surgery is not transphobic FFS. It’s the truth. Many parts of society are trying to force untruths on us all these days, and this is yet another. I fear for the kids growing up in a world that ignores scientific and proven reality.

[shitsgettingreal]

But you CAN'T CHANGE SEX - you just can't. Anymore than you can remove gravity from the planet or swallow a mountain whole. Bodies don't just work that way.

[IAmLurkacus]

Ooooh snappity I think I know who you are now! Do you have a cake to ice?

[R0wantrees]

KataraJean

It is a very interesting read. It should be seen clearly for what it is, which is a collection of essays.
Consideration must be given to each of the writers, their background and context.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Every time someone says that trans people cannot change sex although the Gender Recognition Act is clear that they can, that is transphobia.

But snappity you yourself have recognised on other threads that humans cannot change sex. They just can’t. The law allows people to be treated as the opposite sex in some situations - it doesn’t mean they have.

We could legislate against gravity tomorrow - material reality wouldn’t change one bit.

What you’re calling for is for people to be silenced for speaking the truth and to be forced to deny reality and science- that’s not ‘being nice to minorities’, it’s totalitarianism.

[Snappity]

Examples of transphobia please?

Referring to trans women as "they" rather than "she" is one of the new ones on MumsNet. They is the pronoun for gender-neutral people, not trans women and it is done deliberately to make a point. In general ALL deliberate misgendering of trans women is transphobic.

That's why the DWP very rightly parted company with a doctor who refused to correctly gender trans men and women. It is transphobia and the Talk Guidelines say no transphobic posts.

[LaSquirrel]

She knows that most people here don't think she is a woman and are campaigning to have her, and women like her, excluded from women's toilets etc. She has asked me to be here less and I think I should respect that since it upsets her so much.

Woah! As one trained in DV Risk Assessment, I would advise you to get a proper risk assessment done. A partner trying to control your outside interactions, huge red flag.

This partner, no matter what their sex or 'gender', should be controlling you by guilting techniques. You may be in a situation that is not healthy.