FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

I was 5'8" and therefore male by Snappity's guidance until I had back surgery and lost over an inch. You wouldn't think an operation on your back would act as sex change surgery, would you?

[Sarahconnor1]

You wouldn't think an operation on your back would act as sex change surgery, would you?

[Mogleflop]

Question: I identify as a cloud. Who do I sue about not being able to float? I'm thinking the NHS but don't want to be too predictable?

[Sarahconnor1]

I'm short so I get to stay a women. Not sure if that's a relief or not to be honest.

Now Prince he was a shorty with a fondness for frills and purple. I wonder if he was trying to tell us all something.

[Sarahconnor1]

who do I sue about not being able to float?

Gravity

[Pythagonal]

I may be 5'10 and sometimes 6'0 in big heels, but I have wheelchair privilege so I'll be fine going under the bar

But Beyond we can all identify as having wheelchair privilege, although given my disability, it would have to be a commode on wheels

[Mogleflop]

Hmm. Sounds a bit weighty.

[thebewilderness]

I would think we could field a team for some sort of sport where the goalposts were constantly shifted and the rules continuously changed by some capricious and demanding set of rules.

You just reinvented Calvinball!

[sociopathsunited]

Yay Calvinball! We just stepped into the perimeter of wisdom! I get to make a decree.

I decree that every time a poster comes on with goady nonsense, we retaliate with even more nonsense. It works!!

[OvaHere]

Mornington Crescent might work well for that. As an Olympic sport it could be fun. I'd enjoy seeing the pundits trying to get to grips with it.

[Alicethroughtheblackmirror]

I'd just like say that, contrary to the title of this thread, I've had the best time and I only started on it yesterday. Calvinball, goldfish, lady sport, not too mention witches (they're my fave!).

It's all been rather jolly...

[EmpressWeaponisedClitoris]

Love the idea of Olympic Mornington Crescent.

[lisamuggeridge]

When you request access to spaces of safety from male violence, you are requesting a safeguarding debate. You are requesting a debate where you, as an adult, CANNOT be the central stakeholder. It is deeply destructive behaviour to demand a safeguarding debate, then to declare anyone having it, not placing you as an adult above all other stakeholders, are being mean to you. It indicates real problems that are not other peoples to solve and the violence, abuse, stalking, doxxing of mothers because they are having the debate you requested is abuse. People discussing basic biology, not making you the central consideration in a safeguarding debate you request, people discussing their own rights is not being mean to you. Nothing in either being female or male makes that anything but noteworthy behaviour that should be assessed for risk. Adults who are unable to see the limits of their own identity or see why that they may not be EVERYONES central consideration and believe that violence and intimidation should be used to police that debate are stating very clearly where they fit. All adults are assessed on basis of their behavoiour and hte behaviour they support and attitudes they support. Any adult requesting access to spaces of safety from male violence, declaring female consent doesnt matter, evidence doesnt matter and its hate speech for people to have the debate they requested is making an admission not contributing to a debate and that behaviour is indicative of disordered thinking in a male or female and sex becomes the least important consideration when faced with it. This is not new.

[lisamuggeridge]

Sorry @snappity THat was for you.

[lisamuggeridge]

Also noone ever had a problem with trans women saying they were born in the wrong body as a psychological device, the problem came when the demand was made that we pretend this psychological device was reality, the demand was made with violence and a demad that we end safeguarding and same sex protections. Then it became abusive. Abusive relations and normal relations cannot coexist which is why mumsnet users are being targeted and stalked. They are not required to be nice about it. Nor am I. Wont be. You cant stop male pattern abusive behaviour by pandering to it and being nice about, boundaries are boundaries and an inability to respect womens boundaries is male pattern abusive behaviour and at the poit whree it is demonstrated that males identity matters not legally or in any other way. Gender has been expressed in a way that is designed to harm and subordinate. You cant identify into demonstrating male pattern abuse and need toc ontrol and subordinate women and them not notice.

[Pythagonal]

lisamuggeridge, lovely to see you here. I miss you on Twitter.

[Popchyk]

Brilliant posts, Lisa.

Thank you.

[Ereshkigal]

Great posts Lisa. So true. TRAs target you because they know you understand the power dynamics in play

[sociopathsunited]

Perfectly put, Lisa.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Hear hear lisa

[OvaHere]

Great posts Lisa. So very true.

[LastGirlOnTheLeft]

Great job Lisa!🤗😄

[Melamin]

Great Post Lisa

Mornington Crescent should be an Olympic sport, definitely. I went to Cheddar Gorge last week - should we include that?

[HashtagLurky]

Hooray for Lisa.