FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

[TellsEveryoneRealFacts]

Mumsnet has a lot to answer for IMO.

You mean allowing women to voice their concerns about the:
Assaults
Intimidation
Threats including BOMB threats
Harassment
Doxxing
Posting of other women's CHILDREN's FACES ONLINE
Closing down of their ability to talk about the LAW
Illegal lists of names and numbers
Reporting wrong think to women's employers

Yeah, what meanies.

[Snappity]

R0wantrees encouraging people to 'peak trans' is a movement to combat the acceptance of trans people. There's no way you can deny it.

I don't see how anyone can claim that boasting about causing someone to "peak trans" is anything other than promoting transphobia.

[ADastardlyThing]

I'm too far away but am hoping they do one near me soon.

[daimbars]

duckfuckduck yep same. This is pretty much all is being asked of women, an acknowledgment trans women are legally women and tolerance of trans women in female spaces.
If we could all get to this place there would be no problem.

[ChattyLion]

There’s a government consultation going on for everyone to reply to with their views (whatever they are) which is referenced on lots of threads on here.

There was a debate about legal GRC in the House of Lords on Thursday:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3304168-house-of-lords-debate-on-gender-recognition-process

There’s a lot happening in this area at the moment.

[TellsEveryoneRealFacts]

Snappity nothing you say can be taken in good faith with someone over your shoulder monitoring you. If your partner is ill, and doesn't want you on here, then why are you on here? Rhetorical question of course - as I am not engaging just wishing you both all the best.

As before - Go Well.

[GoldenWonderwall]

I lurk more than I post but the most offensive thing I’ve read on here lately was the op herself. I can’t remember which thread (perhaps the Jimmy Saville one) but it actually really hurt my feelings. Essentially it made me wonder how many people think I’m choosing to be a woman who looks like a woman and therefore the sexual violence I have endured is simply a result of my choice to be a woman because it’s a free choice and I could simply identify as a man and it would never happen. It’s massively upsetting to me to have things that happen solely or mostly to women because of their biology to be rewritten as things that happen to an identity that can be changed on someone’s say so.

I don’t identify with my oppression, leave me alone.

[R0wantrees]

R0wantrees encouraging people to 'peak trans' is a movement to combat the acceptance of trans people. There's no way you can deny it.

I don't see how anyone can claim that boasting about causing someone to "peak trans" is anything other than promoting transphobia.

Snappity I will repeat what I have said to Daimbars

Please don't target me. This says more about you than me.

[Dragoncake]

daimbars things have moved on a lot since 2004 though. As you know.

MN had no hand in creating a conflict of rights and protections. GC women are reacting not agitating.

Most of us would like nothing more than to be reassured that there's no issue here.

[BeyondRadicalisationPortal]

The whole "you can't disagree with the law" thing baffles me, even without looking at historical examples.

If no one is allowed to disagree with the law as it currently stands, how are TRAs pushing for self ID? Oh right - they think the law as it stands isn't good enough. But we're not allowed to.

[Snappity]

Most posters here are very keen for transsexuals to have rights and live their lives peacefully, they just don’t like them being used as a human shield to enable predators to access vulnerable women and children.

Trans women are transsexuals but given the material published on FWR hundreds of times a day, I don't think "most posters" agree with you - although I suspect most MumsNeters would agree. I think a large part of the problem is that the views on FWR are probably not representative of the site as a whole but who is going to stick their head above the parapet?

But that discussion isn't possible on FWR because up will pop a dozen posts saying that sex is biological and humans cannot change sex. Then we will get that men are dangerous. And if we let some people in with a male-frame how will we spot abuser?

It would be good if FWR could have the sort of conversation about trans women being welcome but not wanting fetishistic crossdressers but until the moderation policy stops the transphobia around trans women, I don't see how it is possible.

[BertrandRussell]

The vast majority of gender critical people will always say , as I do, that trans people should have all the rights and protections that everyone else has. That they have the right to live their lives in peace and unharrassed. That they should have the absolute protection of the law if they are not given these rights and freedoms.
However. They do not have the right, to use a cliche, to their own facts. If they make a public statement they should expect it to be challenged, and be willing to provide supporting evidence. If the rights/changes in society they seek clash with the rights of others, then they should be willing to discuss and negotiate, and, if appropriate, compromise. #nodebate is absolutely unacceptable.

[Snappity]

The whole "you can't disagree with the law" thing baffles me, even without looking at historical examples.

There is a huge difference between saying that the law should be changed and saying that women with s GRC are not sex = female. One is an acceptable abstract - the other is unacceptably denying the legal status of a vulnerable group.

[duckfuckduck]

No matter how happy I am to say she and share a bathroom (see my post above “sticking my head above the parapet”), sex IS biological and a human being cannot literally actually change sex.

They can legally change sex, they can identify as a different gender, but they cannot literally actually change sex.

[Snappity]

Please don't target me. This says more about you than me.

That's another way trans people and trans allies are now being oppressed on FWR. If we quote several posters they accuse us of disrespecting their boundaries. It is just another way of erasing pro-trans viewpoints.

[IAmLurkacus]

It would be good if FWR could have the sort of conversation about trans women being welcome but not wanting fetishistic crossdressers but until the moderation policy stops the transphobia around trans women, I don't see how it is possible.

This was the position for YEARS until the Stonewall umbrella. Take it up with Stonewall not FWR.

And don’t try and play divide and separate here, because of the behaviour of extremist TRA’s I will hold the line as far back as I am told to by older feminists. If that is ‘XY it’s a guy’ then again that is the fault of the Stonewall umbrella, what are you doing to challenge Stonewall on the damage they are currently causing to public acceptance of transsexuals?

[LunaTrap]

OP the law itself allows exemptions, it acknowledges times when transwomen can be excluded from sex segregated spaces. Why do you think the law allows this clause, if transwomen become 'literal' women with a GRC?

Also there are many transwomen (with GRCs) who acknowledge that they are not actually women. Why do you get to tell them that they are?

[Snappity]

They can legally change sex, they can identify as a different gender, but they cannot literally actually change sex.

So long as you recognise that all birth certificates are equally valid statements of sex, that is OK.

[CosmicCanary]

So far posters should not be allowed to
Post facts.
Have an opinion.
Have boundaries.
Understand biology.
Say they.
All because a transperson will be upset.

[R0wantrees]

Dr Az Hakeem describes the differences between the patients he has worked with over many years in the opening chapters of the book he has also edited.

'Trans, Exploring Gender identity and Gender Dysphoria- a guide for everyone (including professionals)'


Source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[BertrandRussell]

OP-could you tell me, specifically, what rights transpeople do not currently have?

[duckfuckduck]

There are exemptions in the equality act that I broadly agree with re sex segregation Snappity and I think these, or broadly similar exemptions should stay.

I’m more interested in why you feel you have the right to police my opinion with your “that is ok statement”? Who put you in charge?

You’re also trying to manipulate me, and manipulate my opinion and that pisses me right off, and this makes me less likely to be supportive. If you do that to me, you might want to consider to how many others you also do similar, and whether this approach is likely to achieve your aim.

[R0wantrees]

Please don't target me. This says more about you than me.

That's another way trans people and trans allies are now being oppressed on FWR. If we quote several posters they accuse us of disrespecting their boundaries. It is just another way of erasing pro-trans viewpoints.

No Snappity this is another attempt by you to target me.

[IamtheOrpheliac]

snappity Sometimes people go too far and I do agree that some of the language used isn't doing anyone any favours. That said, Mumsnet is one of the few places where women can express their feelings and fears on this subject and disagree with the current political line without siding with the far right.

I the issues with the language being used and the tone of posts is coming from both sides. I agree with you that there is no need to deliberately misgender trans women is unnecessary and unacceptable. On the other hand, the appropriation of intersex into the debate by trans activists and allies is equally unacceptable. As is the dismissing of the oppression that comes with female biology and the trauma experienced by females at the hands of males. If multiple threads on a corner of Mumsnet is oppressive, then what is #nodebate?

For what it's worth, it wasn't GC feminism that changed my position, it was being more involved in trans activism. I was a supporter of self ID and TWAW. What changed my mind was the double standards and tying myself up in cognitive knots trying to work out conundrums like:

A trans woman who still presented as a male and wasn't out experiences misogyny and denying this is transphobia.

But when I, an androgynous looking female get harassed and abused in the street by men assuming I am a trans woman, that is not transphobia or transmisogyny because I am not a trans woman and therefore claiming I experience transmisogyny is in itself transphobia.

Why can one person claim oppression they don't directly experience and another can't claim oppression they do directly experience?

[daimbars]

duckfuckduck if you were talking to me I wasn't trying to manipulate your opinion at all! I was saying I agree with everything you said in your post. If your post doesn't reflect your actual opinion... well I'm not a mind reader.

I also agree with the EA exemptions.