FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

Can I bring my cousin for dinner next week?” “ Yeah sure, it’s BBQ, if they’re vegetarian let me know I can whip up some nice veggie stuff.

But we wouldn't say

"Can I bring Jane for dinner next week?” “ Yeah sure, it’s BBQ, if they’re vegetarian let me know I can whip up some nice veggie stuff."

We would say

"Can I bring Jane for dinner next week?” “ Yeah sure, it’s BBQ, if she is vegetarian let me know I can whip up some nice veggie stuff."

If gender is known, we use it. And for trans women their gender is known. Using they or keep repeating their name to avoid pronouns is transphobia and it should be banned.

I'm not going to engage any further with someone who believes a legal fiction (GRC) means a person changes ACTUAL sex and that it's transphobic to state otherwise.

Arguing with someone who takes that position is just bad for the blood pressure.

Maybe FWR is not for you.

Go well - there's lot of other fora out there so I'm sure you'll find one that suits

If you can say 'trans'women are women' then we can say 'trans'women are men'. Ban both or none. You can just ban one, especially when it's the only one that has a sound evidence basis.

It is not symmetrical though because of the impact on the individuals and class of person who is being deliberately misgendered. And it is transphobic.

Pronouns relate to sex. I won't be forced into lying and using she to describe a male. They is a compromise I'm willing to make. Your posts show that you don't want compromise you want total capitulation, all of the time. Good luck.

Interesting that denying the validation so desperately sought is such a crime, since I’d have no issue whatsoever if people referred to me with neutral language.

Validation. There it is. None of us "secure in our womanhood" have any problem at all being referred to a 'they'.

Only someone very insecure (or authoritarian) would demand to be addressed in a certain way.

Yes I've noticed a rash of recent complaints about using names or 'they' instead of 'she'.

It's a shift in tactic since the new guidelines. Since language began to be policed, the TRAs have sensed they can push further (quelle surprise) and begin to press for, not just removing terms, but compelling speech.

I am put in mind of someone who demands that some is forced to say sorry, even though they know the person isn't sorry at all, but they will get a kick out of hearing the person forced to say something they don't believe.

Snappity, I'm sorry you and your partner are having a tough time right now. But you have no authority to use your unhappiness to control the language other people use. No one wishes you harm or ill, and in fact a number of people have wished you well as it has become clear you are in a vulnerable place.

Only someone very insecure (or authoritarian) would demand to be addressed in a certain way.

Gosh, quoting myself, but I refer back to my earlier post - get a risk assessment done - this does not sound healthy at all

Only someone very insecure (or authoritarian) would demand to be addressed in a certain way.

So you are saying that we can describe anyone using any words we want regardless of the offense caused?

It is not symmetrical though because of the impact on the individuals and class of person who is being deliberately misgendered. And it is transphobic.*

The use of the singular they dates back to the 16th century and Shakespeare, Sidney, Byron, and Ruskin, among others, must have all been transphobic in their writings

Give yer self a wobble

R0wantrees encouraging people to 'peak trans' is a movement to combat the acceptance of trans people. There's no way you can deny it.

It's all happening here on Mumsnet, that's why so many lurkers pipe up with 'I was always a live and let live kind of person, never had a problem with trans people until I read about them on Mumsnet'.

That's why nobody noticed or cared when the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004 - there were no evangelical GC feminists opposing it, or if there was they didn't have a platform like they do now.

Trans women have been peacefully and happily (and legally) living as women for the last 13 and haven't caused anyone any problems but all of a sudden it's a massive issue. Even though 99% of posters on here freely admit they have never met a trans person in RL.

Mumsnet has a lot to answer for IMO.

If gender is known, we use it. And for trans women their gender is known. Using they or keep repeating their name to avoid pronouns is transphobia and it should be banned.

Since people are rather touchy about pronouns I feel they is an excellent compromise. Pronouns usually work on sex - one could make an innocent mistake assuming gender, since gender is subjective. In that light, they seems polite.

You cannot ban language. You cannot ban opinions or stances that make you unhappy. You cannot ban the truth.
Part of existing in the world is the acknowledgment that other people have opinions and beliefs that you don’t share. Sometimes you may find these beliefs or opinions unpleasant or offensive. Other times you will find them bizarre (I once worked with a geneticist who believed in the literal truth of Genesis for example.)

If this is upsetting you, or causing strife at home then I gently (and genuinely) suggest you step back from it for a bit. Relationships is an excellent source of support for anyone (regardless of sex or gender) who needs it.

Daimbars please don't target me. This says more about you than me.

Morning daim! Hope you enjoy the women's place meeting in Bristol.

Humans can and do change sex. The Gender Recognition Act confirms that is the law and it is transphobic to deny the law.

snappity

I disagree with you numerous times, but quite honestly if you are so desperate that you say stuff like this, FWR is really not your main problem.

FWR is a tiny fraction of mumsnet. You are deliberately seeking out opposition, like picking at a scab.

Telling the world that you think people can change sex because of a piece of paper is always, always going to get a negative reaction. And not just from feminists, from everyone.

Telling feminists that laws are sacrosanct and must not be challenged, shows a profound ignorance of what feminism is. And why we have it.

If feminists didn't challenge, women would still be the property of men, quite literally.

For someone so desperate to be female, your understanding of females is poor.

You seem like an intelligent person, it's really not clear to me why you are so desperate to dominate this board.

You're not persuading anyone, quite the opposite. Your disregard for women, what they need and why they need it guarantees opposition, because this is a board about feminism. The people who read it uphold feminism.

You are really not going to be able to dismantle feminism, all by yourself.

So you're not going to get this board closed, you're not going persuade people. You are actively encouraging more people to disagree with the ideology.

It all feels rather counter-productive to me.

Having said that, you should not stop doing it because of what your partner says, and personally, I'm happy for people to reveal the problems with the ideology.

But, in all conscience, maybe you need to take a break.

So you are saying that we can describe anyone using any words we want regardless of the offense caused?

But how is they offensive? Why is OK to call women (not sure what's banned on here) by CI and TE?

encouraging people to 'peak trans' is a movement to combat the acceptance of trans people. There's no way you can deny it.

Tras encourage peak transing with every single post.

You're doing our work for us so I personally thank you.

Snappity I wish you and your partner well. A break from this forum seems wise if you are vulnerable.

I know 2 transwomen in rl. I call them she and have no problem doing so. I share work bathrooms with one and club/going out bathrooms with another and have no problem doing so.

I happily say they are legally women, or refer to them as transwomen. But they are legally women, transwomen. They are not actually biologically women.

OP do you think nobody should be allowed to disagree with any law then?

And if transwomen literally change sex with a GRC then why does the law allow them to still be excluded from single sex provision in certain situations?

Morning ADastardlyThing! I am looking forward to the meeting, am going with an open mind. If they manage to secure a venue that is.

I'm wondering how far this attitude goes. 'They' is now transphobic, apparently. Is it transphobic if I don't want to use language in a way that suggests I believe men can become women, so when talking about a well-known Labour women's officer I say something like: 'LM has posted on Twitter and I disagree with the thing that LM said and with LM's beliefs. LM and LM's supporters blocked me for disagreeing.' Avoiding pronouns altogether.

Or, for the avoidance of doubt - 'I love the post that LM made and think LM's views on that issue are great, what a nice surprise to be on the same side as LM on this' - I'm talking about the lack of pronouns, not the content. Acceptable, Snappity?

Lol autocorrect doesn't seem to like Brighton!

Mumsnet has a lot to answer for IMO.

Awwww women are not doing as they are told and are forming and voicing their own opinions the big meanies!

My understanding of ‘peak trans’ was that it was the point at which someone realised that the movement for trans acceptance had been hijacked by misogynistic abusers?

Most posters here are very keen for transsexuals to have rights and live their lives peacefully, they just don’t like them being used as a human shield to enable predators to access vulnerable women and children.

The biggest threat to public acceptance of transsexuals is the Stonewall umbrella (see thread by @angrybird on twitter that has been linked to on a thread here)