FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

[R0wantrees]

I know R0wantrees - so many people who hadn't given trans people a second thought are now turning on them.

Daimbars this is disenguous and factually untrue.

Your language choices are interesting.

[Pratchet]

Sorry not RTFT but re: the OP

If you can say 'trans'women are women' then we can say 'trans'women are men'. Ban both or none. You can just ban one, especially when it's the only one that has a sound evidence basis.

This thread is trying to tempt people into saying banned things. I suspect the title should be: not enough of the people we want banned have been banned, so let's see if we can help that along with this thread'.

[Deathgrip]

Oh that’s GC speak? I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a GCF saying “enjoy ur erasure” on Twitter.

And I’ve never seen a GCF threaten physical harm against trans people, ever. I cannot say the same the other way round, sadly.

Do you honestly not look at the violence threatened against women by trans activists and see the same Male attitude towards women we’ve experienced for millennia? I don’t know how you can miss it.

I support an adult’s right to identify as they choose, have whatever treatment and surgery they want (provided there is informed consent), and live as they please as long as they’re not harming anyone else.

That doesn’t mean I will roll over and agree that something is biologically possible when it isn’t just to spare feelings, just as I won’t agree that homeopathy works or turmeric cures cancer. It doesn’t, and I don’t appreciate being threatened with violence because I acknowledge it.

[Snappity]

But snappity you yourself have recognised on other threads that humans cannot change sex. They just can’t. The law allows people to be treated as the opposite sex in some situations - it doesn’t mean they have.

Humans can and do change sex. The Gender Recognition Act confirms that is the law and it is transphobic to deny the law.

[NotTerfNorCis]

Snappity rather than golf, a better analogy would be if a TRA forum was joined by gender critical feminists who then complained that the trans ideology made them feel unwelcome. Would you except the TRAs to avoid words like cis and terf, and to politely consider the idea that gender is a social construct rather than innate, just to spare those feminists' feelings?

[IAmLurkacus]

LaSquirrel

I suspect that this is the same poster from months ago who’s partner deleted their MN account! It was pointed out then that controlling SM access of another adult is abusive behaviour.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Referring to trans women as "they" rather than "she" is one of the new ones on MumsNet. They is the pronoun for gender-neutral people, not trans

No it isnt. It’s a valid and recognised way of speaking about people. Any people.

“Can I bring my cousin for dinner next week?” “ Yeah sure, it’s BBQ, if they’re vegetarian let me know I can whip up some nice veggie stuff.”

I don’t have a gender identity - people call me she, or they. Stop policing language.

[Poppyred85]

Bowl
If those posts are discussing the latest financial scandal at the church of the spaghetti monster, or how the spaghetti cult lures in children and drugs them on pasta sauce, or how they insist on attempting to get an academic fired because she doesn’t like spaghetti, then frankly the pastafarians can be as offended as they want but it’s not hateful. And it stands.

How dare you besmirch the followers of the Great Noodleness! May your pasta forever be soggy and your bolognese sauce watery!

[duckfuckduck]

People can legally change sex.

This is technically a work of legal fiction in the same way as corporate personality. The fiction of corporate personality does not mean that Tesco’s is really an actual live person. It means they can be treated as if they are for the purposes of certain areas of law.

See also the fiction of lost modern grant in land law.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

poppy

Noooooo! I beg forgiveness at his noodly appendage....

[IAmLurkacus]

This thread is trying to tempt people into saying banned things. I suspect the title should be: not enough of the people we want banned have been banned, so let's see if we can help that along with this thread'.

This

[LaSquirrel]

whoops, that should be :
should NOT be controlling you

[Snappity]

And I’ve never seen a GCF threaten physical harm against trans people, ever. I cannot say the same the other way round, sadly.

Of course the threats are wrong.

But my partner has often been a victim of hate crime and hate incidents. We aren't well at the moment and not going out much but it still averages an incident every couple of months.

[Deathgrip]

Referring to trans women as "they" rather than "she" is one of the new ones on MumsNet. They is the pronoun for gender-neutral people, not trans women and it is done deliberately to make a point.

I thought it was literal violence to get someone’s pronoun wrong? Seems like “they” is a safe option, no?

Interesting that denying the validation so desperately sought is such a crime, since I’d have no issue whatsoever if people referred to me with neutral language.

[Betsvigi9]

Obtaining a GRC isn't an indication that someone has actually changed sex. It means that for the purposes of the law they are treated as though they have. The technical term for this is a 'Legal Fiction'.

[R0wantrees]

*Snappity, at 6.30 am, prior to this thread I wrote:

"Snappity you are either completely misunderstanding people's points or twisting them.

Posters have raised concerns about your vulnerability.

Social media can be very damaging, especially when discussions are about things we feel personally very invested in.

Sometimes its really important to step away, even just for a short period, to go for a walk or spend time with friends."

This was said in good faith.

[Betsvigi9]

Duck beat me to it.

[Deathgrip]

I am truly sorry that your partner has experienced hate crimes and violence.

Can I ask though - does that violence come from women? Because it seems to me that women are the ones being targeted here for speaking up, whereas men are being left to get on with virulent transphobia and violence against trans people. Do you not find that strange?

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Humans can and do change sex. The Gender Recognition Act confirms that is the law and it is transphobic to deny the law.

How do humans change sex then? Mechanistically? You’ve said repeatedly on other threads that they can’t - presumably you have denied the law?

Tell me how it works - how does every cell with a nucleus go from say XX to XY?

This is earth shattering stuff if it exists - there will be awards and gongs and whatnot.

[Pratchet]

Every time someone misgenders a trans person individually or collectively that is transphobia

You have a very serious issue in that you don't understand that the truth cannot be bigoted. Biology is not prejudiced. We wish to accurately describe material reality. It is not transphobic at all. I'm not transphobic. I just want to be able to say : this is the truth.

Every time someone says that trans people cannot change sex although the Gender Recognition Act is clear that they can, that is transphobia

Bizarre. No one can change sex and the law does not say they can.

Every time someone says women = XX or reproductive capacity / role, that is inter phobia

You have another problem here in your lack of understanding of intersex conditions. Intersex people have a sex, they have a reproductive role. They are male or female. What they usually don't have is reproductive ability. That's a different thing.

[TheBiologicalWoman]

This is the only place I can can read and post without fear of my family being threatened (see recent 'outings' 🤣 of women with GC viewpoints and the publication of personal details all over social media.

Here, I can read and participate in lengthy discussions, without being reguarly labelled. I see the good that comes from this board (raising awareness, bringing women together) and that makes me feel more confident that if we grow in numbers we can do something about the injustices for women everywhere.

Having recently joined Twitter, it is even clearer that women cannot even state biologogical truths without being trolled/doxxed.

Is it any wonder that so many of us (hope nobody is offended by 'us') meet here?
I can't lie and say 'she' instead of 'he' either.

I thank the majority of posters for bringing the board to my attention, for the well constructed arguments and for never, ever backing down.

[CosmicCanary]

I cant believe you have created a thread just to demand posters do as you say/want!

I could not careless if MN upsets your partner I refuse to be bullied in to agreeing with another persons delusions.

Humans cannot change sex.

[shitsgettingreal]

To be fair, if I spent Saturday mornings goading Mumsnet rather than enjoying a lie-in together, DH would probably want me off the forum too.

[BeyondRadicalisationPortal]

A lot of your posts snappity focus on what your partner doesn't like you reading, or your partner finds upsetting. There's a bit of an undercurrent to these posts that suggests you are walking on eggshells, and I'd suggest you might find a thread in relationships beneficial. They're not all "nasty feminists" there either, they can help without you even mentioning the sex/gender of your partner

[ADastardlyThing]

I'm actually reading this as a bit of a cry for help. Revealing that reading materials are controlled, "we" aren't well so not going out much.........