What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

A transsexual will likely be hugely outnumbered by the group that they are supposedly a threat to in the ladies changing rooms. In the men's, they will likely be hugely outnumbered by the group that is a threat to them.

So women are to act as human shields?

Do you see why this is not acceptable to many women?

There is no supposedly btw. Rates and patterns of offending stay the same as natal sex.

So make it as many spaces as you need and reserve one for transwomen?

Only, don’t expect women to do the all the work, we’re already juggling work/child care/elder care and our own political campaigning!

Well, I did anticipate that being the reply, and the answer is that it's not your problem ultimately.

I've seen several posters use racial analogies recently and I actually feel it to be an accurate comparison. I've not seen a very convincing rebuffal to this comparison and every time the argument seems to be dismissed with a "How dare you compare this to racial segregation you nasty racist" rather than any intelligent counter argument.

There are statistics which show that certain ethnic minorities commit crime at higher rates to others (homicide, theft, drug use, prison population, etc) but it's taboo to say "I don't want to share my space with x race because they present a threat." If you substitute race for sex that's exactly what you're doing and I'm sure there was a time in the last 100 years when certain groups were horrified to share a changing room with a black person.

It's about not condemning the majority for the actions of a minority IMO and I think that's why public opinion is swinging towards being trans friendly despite there being a few crazy nutjobs out there (as with feminism and the far right too).

Snappity that link you posted to the minor US TV person says she transitioned by starting HRT at the age of about 13 (in the US, I thought that was illegal there too) and therefore this was "early enough for her to experience female puberty".

There are comments under the picture agreeing that this can happen.

You do know that this isn't biologically possible and in fact this is fake news?

If you substitute race for sex that's exactly what you're doing

No it isn’t. A black woman, a white woman, they are both women. What unites us is our biology.

Pulling the ‘you're all just like racists! You bigots!’ card is a nice way to shut down debate. It’s another thought terminating cliche. It has absolutely zero relevance to the debate at hand, which is about biology.

Men are as a class, a risk to women
That is why we have sex segregated spaces
We need to retain them.

If you can provide an argument as to why men are now, as a class, zero danger to women then go for it. But until the day they aren’t, we need to retain our sex segregated spaces. For safety, for privacy and for dignity

vastly outnumbered?! I think not, peak hours at the gym yes, coming home this evening, no

But let's say the transperson was vastly outnumbered, in that case at least one of those women may have problems with male bodies, e.g. Result of rape, then the damage could still occur even if she was surrounded by other women.

I appreciate that it's clearly very hard for someone's without female genes who has never experiance sexual abuse to understand the depth of distress /trauma that can be caused in this way. Please try.

It's racist to appropriate racism. Unless you are saying black people represent as much of a threat to white people as men do to women. And I really hope you aren't saying that.

There are statistics which show that certain ethnic minorities commit crime at higher rates to others (homicide, theft, drug use, prison population, etc) but it's taboo to say "I don't want to share my space with x race because they present a threat." If you substitute race for sex that's exactly what you're doing and I'm sure there was a time in the last 100 years when certain groups were horrified to share a changing room with a black person.

That's not remotely a valid comparison and I'm not accepting the notion that it's women who are being 'bigoted' for knowing that men are a threat and that TIMs retain the same patterns and % of male violence.

Moreover, our issue - as we are at regular, great pains to point out - is that self-id will give any opportunistic, abusive, sex offending man a pass into any woman's space he fancies, without the current risk of being thrown out on the grounds that he's an obvious man.

It's about not condemning the majority for the actions of a minority IMO and I think that's why public opinion is swinging towards being trans friendly despite there being a few crazy nutjobs out there (as with feminism and the far right too).

Not when they realise they're exposing women and children to greater risk of sex offenders, attack and abuse, it isn't.

Public opinion isn't swinging the way you want it to, though, Flutterby. The Pink News poll showed only 18% in support of letting trans males self-ID into women's spaces. Even among young people only 27% were in support. That's a pretty clear societal vote for "no".

The race crime statistics however occur because race is a good indicator of things such as social class, poverty and police interest.

Controlling for those factors, then race is NOT a good indicator of criminal activity

so segregation on the basis of race ( which is genetically massively more ambiguous than sex) would be acting on the wrong factors.

What with public opinion and the government in chaos, I think the GRA 'reform' is going nowhere.

So why is biology more uniting than race? Historically, cultures have united more through the latter than the former.

I could appropriate the comment from the previous page and say "It's not up to us to put ourselves at risk to solve this homicide problem. Black males have to solve it, without our help."

Sorry you have totally lost me here ...Race is a visible expression of biology.

Do you think all spaces should be unisex, Flutterby?

If so I'm not sure why you'd have an issue with a compromise third space?

No, Ereshkigal, but I think it's time to stop pretending that transwomen are even vaguely similar to the average bloke.

You could do that, Flutterby, but you'd sound pretty silly.

(Sillier than you already sound by appearing to have named yourself after a My Little Pony.)

Sorry you have totally lost me here ...Race is a visible expression of biology.

How?

If you take a group of san bushmen and a group of white welsh people there are vastly more genetic differences within each group than between the groups.

From a genetic standpoint race is a fairly minor cosmetic thing.

Sex is a major biological difference. Race isn’t.

No, Ereshkigal, but I think it's time to stop pretending that transwomen are even vaguely similar to the average bloke.

Are you saying that Alex isn't a transwoman, Flutterby?

...and here come the ad hominem attacks (typically a sign of a poster lacking a sound counter argument).

No, Ereshkigal, but I think it's time to stop pretending that transwomen are even vaguely similar to the average bloke.

You need to look up Stonewall's definition of trans. It very much includes "average blokes", because it includes - for example - men who occasionally cross-dress.

Moreover, 80% of men identifying as trans have no intention of 'losing' their penis - the bit of them that makes them most dangerous to us women.

Moreover, being trans doesn't stop the violent ones wanting to be violent to women.

A transsexual will likely be hugely outnumbered by the group that they are supposedly a threat to in the ladies changing rooms. In the men's, they will likely be hugely outnumbered by the group that is a threat to them

Not our problem. Sort it out for yourselves. Campaign for your own space. Campaign for the men's to be gender neutral. Campaign for whatever. I don't care. But you're not infiltrating women's spaces. Its not our problem. Its yours.

I'd love a breakdown of how in your opinion Alex differs from the average bloke, or, if you don't think that Alex is a transwoman, how you justify disregarding Alex's stated identity in that way.

Flutterby half of humans have innies and half have outies (genitalia, not belly buttons).

What could be more uniting than 50/50 (give or take)?

There are currently quite a number of male violent and/or sex offenders identifying as trans serving sentences in prison - do you think they're safe to allow into women's spaces - because they're now trans?