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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

877 replies

DJLippy · 09/07/2018 22:22

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

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Materialist · 10/07/2018 18:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 10/07/2018 18:40

'Biological elitism' is the most whiney, self-indulgent, navel-gazing, male-entitled bullshit.

You laydeees are so lucky you've got the vag and tits I wish for. You should count yourself lucky you get catcalled and harassed.

PhiloTube · 10/07/2018 18:43

Lurker "delurking" here :)
I really believe the trans community are understandably naive as to what real biology causes to happen in women's public loos.
But the bodily functions I worry about being judged on, and the likely 'grossed-out' reactions from people who've never had vaginas, may be an ally here. We can not return to feeling shame about our complicated bodies. I'm 40 now and fucked if I'm returning to that time. A short reprise will not suffice. All of the female jobs (washing blood from knickers etc) that require a safe zone amongst women who understand will have to be carried out with the biggest noise and mess possible. I whole-heartedly believe no one with a penis will be able to stomach, nor hide their disgust at our inevitable biological happenings. For 20 years I've had to travel on tour buses with modern thinking men who are kind fellas, but still can't handle period talk, let alone witness first hand what goes on in the bathroom! And I think if we are brazen and unapologetic about our heavy flows, morning sickness, miscarriages (I'm sure I'm not the only one who's needed support from strangers with wombs in public toilets at incredibly upsetting times), leaking breast milk in the toilets while supporting each other, the non-womb-bearing may just decide it's all a bit more than they bargained for. Well fair enough, who wouldn't think it's all flowers, candles and lace table cloths if you haven't lived as a woman thus far? I'm afraid I don't have a solution for protecting trans women from the real dangers they may face in male public toilets but it's unfair that I should have to put that before my women's rights for fear of being called any of the many exciting new insults they have for my fanny bearing type. It may go so far as to need a suitably ballsy reaction. I am not squeamish so maybe this seems like a revolting-revolt to some. Not quite a Bloody Protest, more Unabashedly Adult Female Human ☺️
Am I gross??? Btw, I LOVE all you feminist smart smarts on here!

ResistanceIsNecessary · 10/07/2018 18:45

I don't like the fact that women's oppression is rooted in biological reality.

I have had to work to take on some of the characteristics associated with their oppression. Ergo I will claim that my oppression is more valid because they have biological privilege having been born with the characteristics that are the root of their oppression, whereas poor old me had to consciously decide to be oppressed.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 10/07/2018 18:59

That comment about biological elitism has made me feel absolutely furious. How DARE you?

Go on, tell the girls who are being held down whilst someone goes at their genitals with a razor blade and deliberately mutilates them, that they have "privilege".

Tell the girls who don't go to school because their families are poor and they can't afford san-pro that they have "privilege".

Tell the girls who were kidnapped by Boko Haram and forcibly married off to their captors and impregnated, all because they dared be female and go to school, that they have "privilege".

Tell the victim at the heart of the Belfast rape trial who was pulled apart by the press and the court system, who was systematically dismantled and who ultimately was disbelieved because she "wasn't upset enough" about being raped, that she has "privilege".

Tell the mothers in China whose children were systematically murdered as a result of the "one child policy", that they have "privilege". Labouring women having doctors forcibly injecting fatal doses of drugs into the crowning scalp of babies as they were being born.

Tell the newborn girl infants in India being dumped and abandoned and left to die for being female, that they have "privilege".

Go on.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 10/07/2018 19:01

But yeah, women have privilege alright.

Things we must not talk about

We must not talk about
Fear, rape, pain or death
We must be happy
At all times

We must smile

We must not feel
Rage, dispair or hate
We must be survivors
but not victims

We must be reasonable

We must not cry or scream
Or use the 'wrong' words
We must make sense
To other people

We must speak clearly

We must not mumble
As we are interviewed by power
about horror, pain and shame
For their records

We must behave

We cannot lie on the floor
And feel the ground as we cry
We must stand up
and be counted

We must be adult

We cannot curl up childlike
And rock ourselves
Or wrap ourselves
in Safety

We must be strong

We cannot falter or relapse
We must walk in a straight line
We cannot be unsure,
unsafe or vulnerable

We must be brave

We cannot hide under blankets
Under tables or in cupboards
We must face our nightmares
We cannot choose to die

We must carry on

We cannot stop
Fighting and climbing
We must not look down
We must not fall.

We must think of others.

We cannot spill our guts
Or make a bloody mess
We cannot name violations
We must use the words of others

We must smile.

SuperDandy · 10/07/2018 19:23

lifesabeach "we have spaces for those with disabilities and that was entirely achievable "

I wouldn't describe it as entirely achievable. The battle for disabled access is a long way from achieving it's necessary aims, even after all these years, all the lobbying, all with the sympathy of the vast majority of the population. For example, inaccessible buildings being used for work capacity assessments by the DWP - and that's just to permit someone to get into a building to which they are required by agovernment department to go, never mind toilets or changing facilities.

Even if a third space were found to be an appropriate response fo the UK, the timescale to bring that's into reality as a useable alternative would be very very very long, most likely unsupported by a lot of people in terms of funding or the will to make it happen.

Imagine for a moment the government or LAs or other organisations allocating budgets to provide that third space. And bear in mind that right now all over the country businesses and charities and communities are fitting tooth and nail to have any public toilets AT ALL remain open in their area. In fact, now I come to think of it, all the public toilets in my local area (not a city) have gone over to unisex, and often there is a single accessible unisex cubicle, where before there were ladies, gents and disabled. Frankly we're glad to have any open at all having no gone through repeated stretches where none were open at all.

Interestingly, there is not legal obligation to provide public toilets in towns, villages etc, but that's another thread really.

In the meantime, a provision requiring third space would likely result in disabled facilities being co-opted or co-occupied as a compromise pragmatic position. In some cases where there is excess disabled provision that would be ok, but there aren't many places that fit that description.

I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, just questioning the realistic implementation.

Pratchet · 10/07/2018 19:27

Unless that's a cross post, it's another example of transactivists blithely ignoring women's cries of pain and distress.

Pratchet · 10/07/2018 19:28

I wish you'd all go and bother a trans forum. If we upset you so much, that is where you're guaranteed not to find us.

Pratchet · 10/07/2018 19:30

I checked the timings. That's not a cross post. SuperDandy, you should be thoroughly ashamed of being so callous. Why should we take pity on you? You don't give us a second thought. Not a passing care. Nothing.

Flooffloof · 10/07/2018 19:31

If you are going to strictly segregate people by sex, how would that work in practice without asking everyone, or picking out gender non
confirming people and accusing them? Not everyone has your
special chromosome sniffing skills.

Err just how do you think it has worked in the last few decades?
I will repeat for the hard of thinking, until recently I would see the odd {redacted} in the same loo as me, I would maybe look twice to check my initial reaction. Use my very good judgement and decide they were ok and no threat, make no fuss. Or decide they were there for shits n giggles and therefore I left, and if necessary and possible I would warn other women.
As it stands now, I would make a huge stink and get them removed.
Call me any Damn name you want, it changes nothing, this is all out hostilities. Not of my making.

LangCleg · 10/07/2018 19:32

ResistanceIsNecessary - I love you.

And what Pratchet said. Is there any crassness some people won't stoop to? The thread would have moved on. You could have waited, SuperDandy. That you didn't speaks volumes. Volumes.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/07/2018 19:32

If you think there may be issues with implementation of third spaces then that's your job to figure out, Super. You can't have our spaces just because setting up your own is hard.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/07/2018 19:34

The idea that the only way to determine if a person is biologically male or female if they're wearing a dress/makeup is to test their chromosomes remains hilarious.

Pratchet · 10/07/2018 19:42

Even models

What's wrong with fighting for the third space?
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 10/07/2018 19:51

Love that ResistanceIsNecessary

NaturalBornWoman · 10/07/2018 20:24

And can you not see how selfish and bigoted that looks?

Selfish? SELFISH? You have got to be taking the piss. DFO.

LemonJello · 10/07/2018 20:26

Really hope you’ll come back @Snappity, would love to hear your suggestions for what we could call the segregated space you advocated for, for women who have issues sharing with transwomen.

Would “female space” work for you?

If we can pin down even an informal name here then it will make it much easier to talk about.

Bowlofbabelfish · 10/07/2018 20:52

biological elitism

Explain to me, simply, what this concept actually IS.

If I were to post a selection of pictures of transmen and non-transmen, how succesful do you think you'd be at identifying them?

You aren’t listening to what people are telling you. This isn’t about static images. When there’s a living, breathing, moving human in front of you, you can tell their sex. It’s like when you see a snap of a Kardashian all countoured up vs a when they move - what makes sense to the brain in 2D doesn’t work in 3D. It’s the uncanny valley. It screams to the pattern recognition centres.

Women, humans in general, are very adapt at what’s called ‘thin slicing.’ Basically assimilating large amounts of information, often subconsciously, to reach a conclusion. Look at someone like Derren Brown - none of that is magic, he’s just (terrifyingly) good at reading people. There are no magic nose skills involved - plenty of studies show that women can differentiate males from females by smell alone. Add in movement, and non verbal cues and it’s even more info to process.,

We are (mainly) British. The British are polite in general. They will not upset you if they dont have to. They won't make a fuss, or tell you anything negative because that’s not how we roll. Again this may upset some people, and I’m sure there’s a LOT of validation needed in some circles, but people can tell. Previously there’s been a sort of gentlewomen’s agreement in place- from time to time you’d see someone in the loos and it would make you stop for a mo then assess and carry on. That agreement is now dead in the water, because of a small group of aggressive vocal activists who demand access to all women’s spaces.

That small vocal group of activists directly harm the ability of those transwomen to live quietly.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 10/07/2018 20:59

Thank you for the love.

The poem was shared by one of my feminist sisters in my local network. I don't know who the author is, but it really resonates right now.

Funny how when people's backs are against the wall, they show you who they really are. Do you think that people stop to wonder why feminists, who have traditionally been front and centre fighting against injustice and standing up for the marginalised and oppressed, are so pissed off? Do you think they ever stop to wonder that it's because they are guilty of the very behaviour that they accuse us of showing?

Flutterby1891 · 10/07/2018 21:03

I feel that the main problem with having only the choice between a third space or the men's is that it doesn't offer transwomen a safe retreat from male violence or abuse.

Regardless of whether one believes transwomen are male or something else, I doubt many people would agree that they're similar to a typical laddish bloke - which is likely why so many gay males stereotypically seem to gravitate towards female friends.

A 'passing' transwoman like Barbara Dunkelman is going to face the same situation as a women in regard to being leered at or sexually harassed while undressing in front of the football team, whilst a non-passing transwoman may face even more hostile (violent?) treatment due to being seen as 'a queer' etc and not being able to hide it like a homosexual man can.

A transsexual will likely be hugely outnumbered by the group that they are supposedly a threat to in the ladies changing rooms. In the men's, they will likely be hugely outnumbered by the group that is a threat to them.

Pratchet · 10/07/2018 21:06

It's not up to us to put ourselves at risk to solve this problem. Males have to solve it, without our help.

Flooffloof · 10/07/2018 21:10

@Flutterby1891

And so what.
After all has been said and done,why is this women's problem to solve?

NaturalBornWoman · 10/07/2018 21:13

I feel that the main problem with having only the choice between a third space or the men's is that it doesn't offer transwomen a safe retreat from male violence or abuse.

So they need to work with other males to solve the problem of male violence. Not. Our. Problem.

OlennasWimple · 10/07/2018 21:14

Flutterby - but this is men's problem to resolve. They could stop with the violence, sexual aggression and micro hostility. It's not women's problem to fix

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