Grace Petrie on London protests

[MillyTheKid]

From the folk singer and political activist's Twitter feed:

Here’s what I want to know. I’m a butch lesbian. How come NO TRANS PEOPLE EVER have:
-tried to convince me I’m trans
-tried to stop me using “lesbian”
-interrogated me about whether I will have sex with trans women
-erased me in literally any possible way

And yet, conversely, transphobic feminists have repeatedly:
-tried to stop me using queer to describe myself
-interrogated me about who I’m willing to have sex with
-told me the answer makes me “not a lesbian”
-erased my voice repeatedly in their claim to speak for lesbians

I’m not exaggerating even a tiny bit when I say that the level of harassment I have had simply for opposing TERFs is incomparably more than all the homophobia I’ve experienced in my life. So - you’ll forgive me if I find the “defending lesbians” rhetoric a bit hard to swallow

As I said, I have autism. I don't communicate well. I'm not generally insincere. When I said 'I hope' that is what I meant.

As an autistic woman having my words misinterpreted is distressing.
I don't know whether to thank you for explaining or to ask for a bit more understanding, given my problems communicating. Which were clear. From my words.

For those on this thread who feel that Grace is dismissing the experience of other lesbians - why is there no concern about the negative experiences she has experienced through the actions of gender critical feminists?

It concerns me, tbh. I can see she feels genuinely attacked on one level. I'm not comfortable with any individual being hounded by anyone.

However, if you're claiming to your many followers that there is no issue with transwomen being part of the lesbian community, when there are many documented cases of lesbians being threatened or coerced by males who consider themselved to be lesbians, then you should be prepared to be challenged. And yes it is a robust challenge at times but then it's a very emotive issue at present, for good reason. To be honest in my view Petrie is betraying those much more vulnerable than her. She is in a position of relative power and is throwing others under a bus. Does she not acknowledge at all that other women are being affected very negatively by the creation of the 'male lesbian?'

Even writing about male lesbians makes me feel like I am living in an authoritarian regime where in order to survive I must speak doublespeak and perform mental gymnastics in case of being targeted. Come on. Men are never lesbians. Being a lesbian means being attracted to biological females. If you have only ever been attracted to women and then you meet a man and want to bump uglies with them, that's fine. It is your private business. But that doesn't make that man a lesbian.

who feel that Grace is dismissing the experience of other lesbians

But she literally is, though. She’s saying: this has never happened to me, therefore I don’t believe it’s happened to anyone else. How is that anything other than dismissing their experience?

If her experience is that she’s being abused and yelled at by gender-critical feminists then I’m sorry to hear that. As a radical feminist I understand that we’re in this to liberate women as a class, and that class includes women who are working against their own interests. I would not scream at her or condone her being screamed at. I would say that she is colluding with patriarchy to silence women who’ve faced sexual coercion, though, and that I wish she wouldn’t do that.

As a lesbian who has been part of gender/feminism conversations for a long time, I do prefer if straight women refrain from pronouncing on whether lesbians are lesbians.

I also prefer lesbians not to call me a bigot for expressing my boundaries clearly. I do this as a coping mechanism related to autism.
I'm not good on flexible thinking eg 'lesbians all know what lesbians are so let's just include others too so they don't feel sad'.

Are gender critical feminists lobbying all her venues to get her gigs closed down? Or telling her to die in a fire for having an opinion? Or saying that they will fuck her up with barbed wire around baseball bats?

I very much doubt it. I understand though that if she even hinted at the definition of lesbian being you know - a woman who likes other women - the TRAs would do exactly that.

She is staying safe.

I don't know whether to thank you for explaining or to ask for a bit more understanding, given my problems communicating. Which were clear. From my words.

I apologise, I missed the point that you have autism. I don't feel your words were particularly critical of Grace, unlike many others on this thread; in general your points seem balanced to me.

I do think there is an overall feeling of dismissal of her experiences which is a pity as people are demanding she adheres to those same standards, but your posts were not really part of my questioning.

Grace, I stand by what I wrote above. I would say it to your face, too. Just because you personally have not experienced something does not mean it's OK, ever, to deny that other women have

Then equally you will have to accept Grace saying she has experienced bullying by gender critical feminists. Isn't this thread what you call DAVRO? (Might have the acronym wrong)

Oh, Robin Ince. He's standing up for his friend while clearly not understanding at all. Robin - you are keen on evidence-based argument, no? Why not try some on this issue, eh? Or does evidence submitted by women your friend doesn't like not count, somehow?

If anyone remmebers the title of it, could you please put up a link to the thread here where lesbians discuss their negative experiences because of the trans debate. For the benefit of Robin Ince and anyone coming here from Grace Petrie's thread. Even better could someone tweet Robin with it?

It's an opportunity to show people why Grace Petrie's opinion has been criticised. I've spent 5 minutes trying to find it and haven't been able to. Thank you

I dont understand this 'it's not happened to me so ha!' thing?

When #metoo happened, what would Grace Petrie have said to women who started saying 'Well I've never been sexually assaulted so whaddayatalkinabout?' as a way to shut the whole thing down?

I think when people frame words as 'literal violence' or factual dictionary definitions as 'harmful and insulting', 'abuse' gets that much more difficult to define. I've not seen Gracie subjected to abuse. Can I assert it doesn't happen as I've not personally seen any?

If people could tone down the hyperbole I think we'd get somewhere. That & the rape culture apologising.

Have any GC feminists threatened to kill or rape Petrie? Have any GC feminists incited violence against her? Have any GC feminists expressed a wish that she should die in a fire? Have any GC feminists called her ugly, dried up, unfuckable? Have any GC feminists suggested that nobody buy her records or spammed her label and/or agent with complaints about her? Have any GC feminists put her on a Twitter block list with the aim of weighting the reporting algorithm against her, then mass reported her in the hopes of a suspension?

No. Thought not.

Conclusion: women disagreeing with you is worse than all the above. Several rules of misogyny on display there, LGBTQIA. Try harder.

Yes, 'abuse' these days seems to mean 'my views have been challenged, boo hoo'. It's actually quite worrying, what is happening to robust debate amongst young people in this country?

This whole identy politics bs being played out and promoted, the sanctimonious bullying eedjits controlling the likes of student politics/student unions etc has made me very worried about the caliber of folk who will be going on to be our future politicians and running the country, creating our future policies and laws

Absolutely this. And it's why the Bullingdon Boys will continue with their reign. I mean FFS at least they just get on with shit.

*But she literally is, though. She’s saying: this has never happened to me, therefore I don’t believe it’s happened to anyone else. How is that anything other than dismissing their experience?

If her experience is that she’s being abused and yelled at by gender-critical feminists then I’m sorry to hear that. As a radical feminist I understand that we’re in this to liberate women as a class, and that class includes women who are working against their own interests. I would not scream at her or condone her being screamed at. I would say that she is colluding with patriarchy to silence women who’ve faced sexual coercion, though, and that I wish she wouldn’t do that.*

She's recounting her experiences. At no point does she say 'my experience is every lesbian's experience'.

I think this struck a chord with me because I joined here yesterday and within that time I was called a fuckwit, told I wasn't a feminist, had my sexuality and gender erased, told I didn't care about survivors (something which is literally abhorrent to me, as a sexual abuse survivor - not that I should have to disclose that in order to be taken seriously) and told I was playing a role of a 'wide eyed ingenue' - a gender role that I utterly despise - simply for disagreeing with people who appear to be fairly well established on here.

Gender critical feminists can say that they are protesting justly, but there appear to be some major misogynistic tendencies towards women that disagree with their views, who have their own experiences and trauma, while at the same time a demand that their experiences and trauma are taken seriously.

This thread is such a prime example of all the things she’s accusing GC feminists of. I see people even moved onto insulting her music...

So many on this board (including many straight women) use lesbians as a gotcha or a talking point or whatever, and then the second a lesbian doesn’t fall in line they turn on them completely, as demonstrated here. If a lesbian isn’t going to be the perfect passive prop for GC arguments you might as well tear her apart, right?

Are gender critical feminists lobbying all her venues to get her gigs closed down? Or telling her to die in a fire for having an opinion? Or saying that they will fuck her up with barbed wire around baseball bats?

That is completely irrelevant as to whether or not Petrie has experienced bullying as she describes.

She's recounting her experiences. At no point does she say 'my experience is every lesbian's experience'.

That's quite a common tactic here. Someone makes a personal statement and people twist it into a general one because it's then easier to attack.

I see people even moved onto insulting her music

Oh come off it- if she puts herself forward as s political songwriter saying she isn't very good at it is fair game.

That has nothing to do with being gender critical- or do you think no musician should ever hear adverse criticism?

She's recounting her experiences. At no point does she say 'my experience is every lesbian's

Apologies if I misread it then. My impression was that she was recounting her own experiences in response to what other lesbians were saying about their own, and saying “well if this is really happening how come it’s never happened to me?”.

As I said above I don’t agree with laying in to other women in the name of feminism. And I came to this debate originally myself with the same kind of view you have, saying the same kind of things you said, and got the same kind of reaction.

do you think no musician should ever hear adverse criticism?

Of course not, but the whole reason she is experiencing this pile-on, including the criticism of her music, is that she dared to disagree with the mumsnet party line. It’s not a good look. I know you personally are not a GC feminist, but she came to your attention because others here were laying into her merely for saying what very obviously, based on this thread, is true. And you happily joined in.

but the whole reason she is experiencing this pile-on, including the criticism of her music, is that she dared to disagree with the mumsnet party line

I don't presume to talk for other posters so don't you presume to talk for me.

I have no interest in the trans/ lesbian issues. My criticism of her is entirely based on her music and her general extreme left wing politics.

Did you not read the rest of my post, lass? The part where I said

I know you personally are not a GC feminist

?

How dare she tell glinner to fuck off He's got more talent in his little finger than an army of Grace Petries.

Robin Ince should have a word with the wife of his good mate Brian Cox. She'd explain to him why men cannot be women or lesbians - although as a man of science, I would expect him to be able to grasp that concept himself.

Did Glinner delete his tweet? I can’t see it in the thread...

If anyone remmebers the title of it, could you please put up a link to the thread here where lesbians discuss their negative experiences because of the trans debate

There's a thread here gendercritter:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

It links to an interesting and shocking reddit thread:

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7s4bu2/as_a_lesbian_in_university_i_feel_increasingly/