Grace Petrie on London protests

[MillyTheKid]

From the folk singer and political activist's Twitter feed:

Here’s what I want to know. I’m a butch lesbian. How come NO TRANS PEOPLE EVER have:
-tried to convince me I’m trans
-tried to stop me using “lesbian”
-interrogated me about whether I will have sex with trans women
-erased me in literally any possible way

And yet, conversely, transphobic feminists have repeatedly:
-tried to stop me using queer to describe myself
-interrogated me about who I’m willing to have sex with
-told me the answer makes me “not a lesbian”
-erased my voice repeatedly in their claim to speak for lesbians

I’m not exaggerating even a tiny bit when I say that the level of harassment I have had simply for opposing TERFs is incomparably more than all the homophobia I’ve experienced in my life. So - you’ll forgive me if I find the “defending lesbians” rhetoric a bit hard to swallow

Don't try to bury the very male threats of violence towards disobedient women, including sexual violence, by transactivists in "women do it too". You're sounding like an MRA.

Are you trying to deny that some women can be misogynistic? I'm not trying to 'bury' anything - one sentence in my entire post does not constitute burial.

Oh and here's something you can do. Tell your male allies who join in yo bully and dismiss and abuse women to back off this issue, they are not helping anyone.

I don't have many male allies, but if anyone I knew was abusing and dismissing women, I would absolutely tell them to back off.

guess you will disagree with me on that, but for me it's non-negotiable

Me too. So there we are. Your friend is male. I don't want any males in intimate female spaces, or taking over feminism with their different issues and silencing discussion of women's. We can't pick and choose which males we have in female spaces. Many aren't as nice, or as vulnerable, as your friend.

But LGBtqia what is it u wan5 women to do ?

Are you trying to deny that some women can be misogynistic? I'm not trying to 'bury' anything - one sentence in my entire post does not constitute burial.

Try engaging with the point being made rather than deflecting.

the very male threats of violence towards disobedient women, including sexual violence, by transactivists

Here it is, in case you're unsure

because you are not focusing on the patriarchy, you are focusing on a marginalized group who also suffer under the hands of the patriarchy.

Look, I appreciate that this is too big an issue to fit into one post, but here’s why radical feminists have an issue with that framing.

There is a debate here between two different philosophies of what a woman is. This has impacts far beyond those that fall on a particular marginalised group. Changing the definition of ‘woman’ from ‘adult human female’ to ‘anyone who cares to use the word ‘woman’ to describe themselves’ has an impact on (biological) women. It removes our rights to organise and campaign as a sex class; it obscures statistics on discrimination and abuse, and waters down the measures used to combat those things; it reinforces the idea that all women have some innate psychological “female-ness”; it contributes towards the current hyper-gendered environment of childhood (“girls wear pink and like dresses”). It removes sex-segregated spaces (because why would we need them if ‘gender’ overrides sex?), limiting women’s safety, comfort and ability to succeed in things like competitive sports relying on physical strength. And in some circumstances it absolutely leaves the door open for predators; do you really think that no male prisoner would pretend to be trans to transfer to the female prison estate?

This isn’t about picking on trans people. This is about wanting to make sure that measures to advance their rights don’t reduce those of biological women.

Another angle:

Patriarchy is a system under which women as a class are oppressed. Gender is the mechanism by which this oppression is done.

I don’t care myself if some people feel a strong affinity and comfort with the idea of gender. We all need to make our peace with the system we live in. But codifying gender as a real innate thing, something more real than biological sex, and demanding that everybody else does so as well - that’s hardly tackling patriarchy.

That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does.

There does seem to be a lot of focus on trans issues on here. However thats because transactivism is an imminent threat to womens rights. possibly the largest there has ever been. MRAs really have hit the jackpot with this one.

But I choose to listen to my friends in the transgender community, and I know they are not the enemy of women or women's rights, as a whole.

This is a really crucial point for me.

I fully accept your trans friends are decent people who are just trying to live their lives. It must seem appalling to you that people on here could do something as cruel as misgender them or lump them in with predatory men given you care about them.

Like many women here I used to be in that same position. I saw the film Transamerica with Felicity Huffman and came out of it feeling such empathy for trans people. I imagine I'd gladly have said tw are women. What's the problem with being inclusive afterall? It costs nothing, right?

Being here has changed me. I can't tell you how shocked I was when I first read 'transwomen' are men. It seemed so bigoted. It's easy to forget how profoundly shocking that is if you're new to the gc position.

And I still think many trans people are decent people who just want to live peacefully. My gc position has very little to do with any individual trans person.

What's changed is I am concerned now with women's rights. In changing society to say any male can be female, women are being harmed We have so many examples of that. In sport, in schools, in refuges, in shopping centres and prisons and online. It is profoundly serious. It will only get worse. There are so many examples of the harm done all over these boards.

By all means be trans and be happy. The world is more interesting for being diverse. The minute I have a problem is when your actions start hurting women, however. It's ok to have boundaries and for women to say, in order to be safe in society we need to sometimes shut the door on men. Trans women are men. That isn't personal. It isn't an attack. It is biological reality. Men as a class are violent towards women. That won't change any time soon. We need 3rd spaces for trans people if they don't wish to be in male spaces.

Women don't have to budge up and open their doors and put themselves in harms way to make trans people safer.

There is a debate here between two different philosophies of what a woman is. This has impacts far beyond those that fall on a particular marginalised group. Changing the definition of ‘woman’ from ‘adult human female’ to ‘anyone who cares to use the word ‘woman’ to describe themselves’ has an impact on (biological) women. It removes our rights to organise and campaign as a sex class; it obscures statistics on discrimination and abuse, and waters down the measures used to combat those things; it reinforces the idea that all women have some innate psychological “female-ness”; it contributes towards the current hyper-gendered environment of childhood (“girls wear pink and like dresses”). It removes sex-segregated spaces (because why would we need them if ‘gender’ overrides sex?), limiting women’s safety, comfort and ability to succeed in things like competitive sports relying on physical strength. And in some circumstances it absolutely leaves the door open for predators; do you really think that no male prisoner would pretend to be trans to transfer to the female prison estate?

I think this is a very fair post. And of all the people who I've engaged with more than once on here, you've been the only one who has really tried to talk to me in a way that doesn't dismiss my fears about my transgender brothers and sisters. So thank you for that.

I understand these concerns. I believe that transwomen should only be able to legally identify as a woman - and therefore be able to access female spaces - after a certain number of years of living as a woman and after a robust psychological test to show they are truly female in identification. I do not believe that gender is biological only; that doesn't mean I believe in gender stereotypes, but I do believe gender is more than our anatomy, and I know I'm not alone in that.

I also believe that if protesters such as "Get the L out* and similar want to make any genuine progress, not at the expense of the transgender community, and if the transgender community's claims that they do care about all women's rights (and not just transwomen's rights) is true, then there needs to be actual collaboration and action, working together to hear out all sides.

There does seem to be a lot of focus on trans issues on here. However thats because transactivism is an imminent threat to womens rights. possibly the largest there has ever been. MRAs really have hit the jackpot with this one.

YY. I doubt LGBTQIAs trans friends are late transitioning cross dressers so she is not seeing the issues here.

I feel it every day as a woman and a survivor, but I don't believe the echo forum you've molded here will do any long term good, because you are not focusing on the patriarchy, you are focusing on a marginalized group who also suffer under the hands of the patriarchy.

Because my friend is a woman. She is not a man. I guess you will disagree with me on that, but for me it's non-negotiable. She doesn't "invade" spaces;

Ok, so here is your conflict.

You are viewing transwomen as just as disadvantaged as women. And in very much the same way.

Firstly, they are born male. So the fact that they are even born is indicative of male privilege. You really need to do some reading around male privilege to see how it works. It wouldn't matter how they identified, they would have been encased in it.

It plays an enormous part here.

Feminism is not about equality. It's basically about increasing the financial and political representation of women. In order for them to stop being disadvantaged.

The crux of this is why are they disadvantaged? From birth?

They are socialised completely differently. Although this phenomenon is well documented, the BBC programme No More Boys and Girls focused on it recently.

At the age of seven, the girls interviewed said the only thing they can do better than boys is 'look pretty'. And the only emotion the boys could express was anger. Age seven.

The adults, teachers, parents and caregivers were totally shocked to look back at a film of themselves socialising the children differently, before their very eyes. When they were utterly convinced they treated them the same.

It wouldn't have mattered how these boys and girls identified. It's how they were treated that counted.

So when a transwoman decides that they should have equal place on, for instance, an all women shortlist, they are disregarding the reasons for the shortlist in the first place.

They are not only taking the place of, and displacing, a woman, they are able to do so because they are male, and they are blindly ignoring the disadvantage to women, because it doesn't apply to them. And they are reducing women's political representation. It doesn't get more entitled than that. It's patriarchy in action. Unless you think that a man is best placed to represent a woman? It's not called patriarchy for nothing.

I see that the main area of crossover for a lot of people is the way that transwomen are abused.

I do believe that this is leveraged, relentlessly.

It is a statistical fact that a man who transitions will be at less risk of murder than one who hasn't.

In this country, it is also a statistical fact that there are more transwomen murderers than victims.

Nonetheless, I am sure transwomen come in for abuse. But it is from men. And it's homophobia.

Men are very uncomfortable around gender nonconforming men. They don't beat them because they think they are women.

Male violence is a crushing problem. Globally.

But the answer is not to dismantle the boundaries that women have fought for in order to partake in public life and enjoy political representation.

It's immaterial whether you believe transwomen are really women. They offend at the same rate as men and have benefitted from male privilege.

But more importantly, it's not verifiable in any way. Any man can claim they are a woman. And many men do.

Transwomen need to campaign for a third space.

There is not a single argument, other than male dominance, that can question that solution.

if the transgender community's claims that they do care about all women's rights (and not just transwomen's rights) is true, then there needs to be actual collaboration and action, working together to hear out all sides

And how do you propose that happens when even one woman declining to accept being 'CIS' is bullied, harassed, threatened and basically forced into retracting the statement and off of social media?

Top tip - it isn't the feminists doing the harrasing, bullying, threatening or forcing people off of anywhere. They are the ones talking and discussing and trying to be open if they weren't being shut down, bullied, intimidated and basically forced to do things in secret.

Nailed it again datun totally nailed it

It is hard to read these threads when you think of trans friends. I have a post operative transsexual family member (who is actually gender critical herself!) and I did start off thinking that feminists were just being big meanies. But then I found out quite how misogynistic and homophobic trans ideology (note, not all trans people) is. Transactivism is a large threat to womens rights, and women need to fight back against it. This does not mean said women hate all trans people or anything, it simply means women recognise the male pattern abuse thats rampant in transactivism. And women, especially feminists, have a lot of experience in this behavior. So the time comes where we stop trying to be 'nice' and have to think of ourselves. There was a time on this foprum where near every post started with 'not all trans people' but that seems a bit pointless now as surely noone can think that we mean every single trans person anyway, its quite like the 'Not All Men Are Like That' thing.

LGBTQIA

If you want an example of what I'm talking about, take a look at Lily Madigan and Heather Peto.

Both of them occupying a place that is reserved for women.

Both of them displaying behaviour that would never, ever be countenanced in a woman.

Male privilege.

Take a look at the transwomen who are being elected politically in the US.

Sexualised visions of women, that actual women would be utterly vilified for.

Double standards = male privilege.

It's sexism in plain sight.

And it becomes worse when they speak on behalf of women.

So you get Paris Lees saying I'm a woman, therefore what I say is representative, and I'm saying objectification is hot.

Monroe Bergdorf claiming that they are speaking as a woman, telling women, on a women's march, not to talk about their reproductive issues!

It's the biggest con in history.

PersonWithAVulva

Exactly.

There must be thousands and thousands of men with gender dysphoria, who wouldn't dream of saying they represent women.

Presenting as a woman alleviates the symptoms of gender dysphoria. It's not complicated. Everyone gets it.

That's completely different to claiming you are actually just a different kind of woman, and therefore represent them.

There must be thousands and thousands of men with gender dysphoria, who wouldn't dream of saying they represent women.

Yes. I wish we would hear more from them. I do understand why not though. But to see that reason being glossed over is exasperating in the extreme.

LGBTQIA- if you have a moment, could you address my point about sport please? I genuinely feel that it sums up the concerns about SI, but in the least emotionally charged way possible -an excellent proxy for the debate in my view

Transactivism is a large threat to womens rights, and women need to fight back against it. This does not mean said women hate all trans people or anything, it simply means women recognise the male pattern abuse that's rampant in transactivism. And women, especially feminists, have a lot of experience in this behavior. So the time comes where we stop trying to be 'nice' and have to think of ourselves.

Wanted to repost this in bold, Personwithavulva.; While I'm sure there's lots of lovely MtFs* living quiet lives, many/most TRAs in the public eye communicate in a way that's exactly the same as other abusive males.

• We always refer to MtFs leading quiet lives away from social media, and exonerate them from the evils of extreme transactivism. But these quiet people need to react to the fact that TRAs are claiming to represent them, and if they disagree then they're going to have to speak up.

Because there will be a backlash eventually, and no one wants inoffensive transsexuals caught up in the cross fire.

Datun, I don't think it's said enough (even though it's said plenty!) but your clear, straightforward, rationale on these threads is invaluable and I am forever thankful for your input & unwavering determination to keep on keeping on with it. Thank you so so much.

Obviously I don't expect people to be on Mumsnet all day-but there does seem to be a bit of a pattern- posters challenge the gender critical
position, are asked questions, they
answer the questions in very broad, often circular terms, they are asked to clarify then they vanish. I've seen this happen a lot.

You may well be right, Bert.

Perhaps they don't realise that I'm not really talking to them.

LeiaTheSlaya

Thanks !

Bertrand, I agree about the competitive sports question. I don't think you have to know much about sports to understand that as you say, it is not only an issue of itself, it symbolises and reflects much of the debate.

• people born men in women's spaces - check
• people born men using superior strength to advantage over women - check
• women unable to protest, just have to suck it up - check
• campaigns (successful) to protect the new state of affairs with legislation - check

Prob other points of similarity.