Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

[SpareRibFem]

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

Everyone knows that we are talking about men, males, the half of the population that contains the majority of predators and murderers.

When you switch from saying men to saying people everyone can see the switch and most understand why you conflate men with women when you want to tell women we are being unfair to men.

This year in the UK there are more transgender murderers than murdered.
False claims of transgender victimhood only carry you so far. Then people start to fact check you and they get angry when they find out they were lied to. Black prostituted transgenders die at a shocking rate at the hands of men.
That simply bears out the Feminist position that women and girls need their rights to privacy strengthened, not weakened.

Great post Materialist

That poster "don't worry. They know better than you do" was creepy to the max - as well over-riding The Gift of Fear, it was as patronising AF. I read it as "don't worry your pretty little head about it" - where have we heard that before? From men. But you are so right, the grooming element is even more sinister.

Hope your post stays, Materialist.

Well here's a tweet and a half

Jimmy Rushmore @ jimmysecuk
Ash Sarkar is literally a classical liberal who thinks she's a communist

Douglas Murray Spectator article 'Does Teen Vogue understand what it means to be ‘literally a communist’?'
(extract)
"[Ash] Sarkar and her colleagues are now (and I refuse to link to this) even trying to monetise their communism. They have already made t-shirts available for purchase with the hilarious slogan ‘I am literally a communist’ on them. I suppose capitalism must have its uses after all. Perhaps in due course we will be able to see people wearing these casual moral insults. That they will worn by the same sort of people who have spent recent years telling everyone else that they must ‘call out’ fascism wherever they sniff if and should actually punch Nazis whenever we think we see them raises the interesting question of what attitude the rest of us should take should we see anyone wearing one of these obscene communist t-shirts?

Of course the wearers will have an advantage of a kind. Which is the advantage of ignorance. For alarming though it is, many people when they hear ‘communism’ do not think of the NKVD and the knock on the door. They do not think of the graves of tens of millions of people all across the globe. The millions of wasted lives, from the wastelands of Siberia to the blackened piles of human skulls in Cambodia. They do not think of the witness of Alexander Solzhenitsyn. Nor of Anna Akhmatova, whose husband was executed in a mass shooting and whose son was later sent off to the Gulag. They do not think of her testimony of the Yekhov terror, when she spent 17 months in the prison queues in Leningrad:

‘One day someone ‘identified’ me. Then a woman with lips blue with cold who was standing behind me, and of course had never heard of my name, came out of the numbness which affected us all and whispered in my ear—(we all spoke in whispers there): ‘Could you describe this?’ I said, ‘I can!’ Then something resembling a smile slipped over what had once been her face.’

None of this comes to their minds. And why? There are only two possibilities.

The better of these is ignorance. Though it is not a simple ignorance. Rather it is an ignorance on such a scale and of such a catastrophic obscenity that any person becoming aware of it would hide away from shame. There to educate themselves. To inform themselves. To try to make better human beings of themselves. In a word to ‘redeem’ themselves from an ignorance that ought to be personality-shattering when it is recognised.

As I say, that the is the happier explanation. The unhappier one is that anyone able to say ‘I’m literally a communist’ actually does in fact have – at the very least – an inkling of all of this. Or is merrily on board with atrocity. It means that they are happy to explain it away, diminish it, minimise it or otherwise excuse the horror. This possibility takes a range of forms. Like some of the far-right after the war, some are hoping to argue down the death-tolls caused by their own ideology or pretend them away as exaggerated or proclaim that they were invented by their ideological enemies. They do not bother to contend with the facts or the testimonies of Solzhenitsyn or Akhmatova, because they consider that witnesses such as them in some way let the side down. Sure some bad things happened. But you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. And why concentrate on all those tens of millions of broken shells when we can keep working on this foul, unworkable, blood-drenched omelette?" (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/does-teen-vogue-understand-what-it-means-to-be-literally-a-communist/

Ash Sarkar was part of the panel on GenderQuake Debate:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243464-Channel-4s-Genderquake-Debate-is-heavily-criticised-boycotted-by-prominent-transgender-activists-allies

Also part of the Novaro interview with her friend Shon Faye.
thread discussing this:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3251869-Shon-Faye-Ash-Shankar-review-of-Gender-quake

See also Jess Bradley (NUS trans / Action for Trans Health) featured in Sky segments on GRA, Lily Madigan, Owen Jones, Eden Ladley etc

twitter.com/HWGYoungLabour/status/1020009994471854081

relevent current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3311038-Sky-News-9-30am-today-re-GRA

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309758-This-never-happens-male-offenders-in-female-prisons

previous threads:
NUS Trans18 (allocating women's loo as gender neutral in hotel & subsequent occupation)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237230-NUS-Conference-breaks-down-after-the-UK-Border-Force-Arrive

Workshop at NUS Women's 18
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3222263-Slide-show-on-How-to-Deal-with-TERFs

Sisters Uncut
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3257491-Strong-words-from-feminists-unhappy-with-trans-exclusionary-ideology

Like Little Owen Jones and Laurie Penny, Ash is mostly interested in creating a brand for herself. I don't think any of them say much that's sincere - the moment any of the causes they currently champion go out of fashion they'll shift to new ones, and expect everyone to forget what they supported before.

twitter.com/HWGYoungLabour/status/1020009994471854081

twitter.com/brunskellevans/status/1020711400388349952

See Rose of Dawn's YouTube channel:
"Radical far-left activists often co-opt unrelated movements to enforce their ideology on others. Here, I take a look at this phenomenon taking place in the trans community.

Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn "

What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?

Well, my gast is well and truly flabbered reading this stuff this morning (having not come across Sakar before).

I've had many an argument with fun feminists so fun that their grasp on the feminist bit is incredibly tenuous to say the least. The argument usually goes them: "who are you to police what feminism means? Feminism is a broad church and a woman (or indeed man or small green furry creature from Alpha Centauri) is a feminist if they say they are..." Me: "words have meanings. You wouldn't take someone seriously if they said 'I identify as a communist, but I believe in a small state, private enterprise and individual wealth - who are you to tell me I'm not one'. Likewise someone who says 'I identify as a feminist, but I think it's just fine to watch eroding maternity protections, giving men a say in whether women can have abortions, allowing differential pay rates by sex driven by market forces, violent pornography being used as an instruction manual, the closing of women's shelters, victim blaming...' can call themselves a 'feminist' all they want but they aren't one."

I've used this analogy for ages on the basis that surely no-one would be so stupid as to buy into that self definition of communism...

But it seems that they are. And, surprise surprise, there's a huge overlap between being that stupid about what communism means, and that stupid about what feminism means, and generally buying into believing half a dozen impossible things before breakfast.

Ash - you're not a communist, you're a free-market libertarian you numpty. That's about as "total opposite of a communist" as you can get.

I hope you don't go, Offred. I'll miss you. I too am on 2 strikes, though my second email didn't say I was at risk of not being able to post, which I gather others have had in their second.

One of the strikes made some sort of sense because I identified someone who was under 18 at the time, though they had voluntarily appeared on TV at the time to discuss it.

The other one was, I feel, unjustified and I'm going to appeal it.

Oh yes, another adding to the chorus of "please don't go if you can face staying, Offred ."

Back on point for the thread - any ideology, no matter what that ideology is, and how "on the side of the angels" the ideology is perceived to be - should be used as an excuse to weaken child safeguarding, because if you weaken child safeguarding, sexual predators exploit those weaknesses.

I speak as yet another woman on this board who has seen first hand the devastation that the "keeping secrets" aspect of grooming and child sexual abuse has wreaked within my own family.

When you have adults saying "keep this a secret" even if the motives of the adults are good, it creates a culture where bad shit can happen.

Case in point (entirely unconnected with trans issues). I'm part of an online hobby community, female dominated (think crafting, or similar). We have adults and teens chatting about harmless stuff like where to get cheap yarns. One of our adult members was having a tough time and it was decided to have a whip round to get her something nice - a new sewing box - to cheer her up, and as a tangible reminder that there were people out there who cared.

Of course the adults could donate via paypal/bank transfers. But the teens (who liked this woman too) could not. So one of my friends arranged to meet one of the teens (aged about 14) in the cafe of a local shopping centre to pick up a couple of quid donation towards the gift.

I went ape-shit with her. It didn't matter that her motives were totally innocent - she was behaving in a way an adult should not behave towards a teen they only know online. And that teen, having had this happen once and it turn out totally okay, would then think it was okay to behave this way towards other strangers on the web.

What my friend should have done was said "can you send me your mum's email?", let the mum know what was going on, then said "is there a convenient time I could meet up with both of you, if you're happy with your daughter contributing a couple of quid? If you aren't, don't worry, I'll let our mutual friend know that she's very much in your daughter's thoughts."

Hopefully this illustrates that even totally innocent activities from the best of motives can stuff up child safeguarding if they encourage an attitude of keeping secrets from the adults responsible for the child's welfare.

Offred I hope you don't go too but also understand.

If you do go or especially if your voice is censored from mumsnet with a ban for raising child safeguarding issues, whatever you do don't go quietly.

Keep copies of the posts that were banned, and any justification and communication.

Talk to a journalist like Andrew Gilligan or Sanchez Manning. Britain's leading parenting site banning and censoring concerned parents for raising safeguarding issues is quite a story.

If mumsnet banned someone for posting about children's safety concerns it could be just what is needed to highlight the serious concerns most parents aware of the issues have about the combination of some seriously dodgy practice in things like official guidance given to schools, and an environment where questions being asked are shut down.

Materialist

The only bit of the eastern block (well, not really full-on eastern block) I used to visit regularly pre-fall-of-communism was the former Yugoslavia, which had always been slightly more open and less repressive than its Soviet satellite counterparts. But even then, it was a dour place, where you were aware that you didn't want to step out of line.

Ditto Beijing which I've worked in - you're constantly aware of an undercurrent of "things you do not say." I particularly remember people, when they got to know you really well, hesitantly admitting to being Christians, with this sort of reflex glance-over-the-shoulder to make sure no-one else was listening. (Though arguably, Beijing is doing a stellar job of creating a deeply capitalist society bolted on top of an incredibly authoritarian, repressive regime, and packaging the whole thing up as "Communism" - maybe this sort of western "identity politics faux-communist" would feel really at home there, could set up in charge of the garment factory making the "I'm literally a communist" t-shirts, then report anyone who complained about the 16 hour shifts to the authorities as a "dissident".)

I'm really concerned Offred & Prawn that you might also be 'struck off'.

I can't reconcile this possibility with the fact that there are some other posters still here posting freely.

I hope you will challenge it.

I've learned so much from women such as you both on this board.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3297067-Mumsnet-moderation-response-to-yesterdays-feedback

Offred and prawn stand til the end. What you say might end up with you being banned but you can still get a vital point across. Even if this takes bans we can work ways through it. It is very possible with some willing to lead the way for others to deseminate what you say, pick it apart and then look at what's being said and done ideologically and construct counters which do not refer to trans issues at all but at how populism in general is attacking frameworks which protect us.

I actually think there is a wider danger presented here by the parallel forces from left and right, and whilst we busy ourselves with one we are in danger of ignoring what else is going on behind our backs and recognising that trans activism does not ride this current wave of politics alone. It is very much characteristic of a wider threat.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3313753-Its-a-sad-day-when-pie-has-power-on-mn

previous relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237699-Thread-on-twitter-The-paedophilia-plan

I hope you don't go Offred and Prawn but I understand the frustration at being deleted when we're already contorting our speech to fit rules that are anything but fair and reasonable. I've had a post deleted with no notification and I cannot think what was in it to cause it to be deleted and yet a poster I reported for multiple infractions was not deleted. I'd say there is n consistency in how the rules are being deleted but there is and we all see it

Ofred and Prawn, I too will be sorry to see you go.

@MNHQ parents need to be able to discuss the subjects of adults grooming children and paedophilia on this site. Please do not simply bag this up with the trans issues and discard meaningful debate around safeguarding and child protection just for political correctness and, as pp said, because strangers on the internet didn't like it. You have to ask why they don't like it. What are their motives?

Some really wonderful posts by everyone here last night and this morning. So wonderful that I don't think I have anything new to the table really. Particular thanks to Materialist and Red who have done a sterling job situating the context that so many people, including but not limited to MNHQ, seem to be deliberately blind to.

The left, by abandoning any universals of truth, ethics or morality, have created an enormous power vacuum for the right to rush right into.

This. My DH was reading about one or other of the latest nonsenses from extremist TRAs the other day and he looked at me and said "At some point, Tommy Robinson and his arsehole mates are going to take notice of this, aren't they? And then it won't only be them who are fucked; it'll be the rest of us, too."

Placemarking.

The real wider issue is we are dealing with uptopianism.

Uptopian politics feast upon senses of injustice and misery. They offer an idealism version of the world as an escape from reality. This is why it is so hard to smash through. People do not want to live in the real world, these ideas are a way of escaping that.

Both Brexit and Trans Activism contain this type of extremism which to some has become religious in this sense and no amount of realism is likely to cut through as a result.

You have nothing to offer in terms of alternative hopes and dreams because the importance of the ability to deliver them is fundamentally puts you at a disadvantage.

This is what social democracy which has been the core of politics since WW1 has to really focus on - a reconnection with a sense of idealism, which people believe in which is inherent in the belief of rights. This particular idealism is much more grounded in practical considerations.

What you have to remember is it is pointless to try and pitch to merits of this to those who are converted with religious level belief. You can only weaken it by pointing out how insane and disconnected to reality it is, to those who do not share that ferver.

Populism is about idealism. It has to have a ground swell of support reach a tipping point. You have to renew and rekindle some inner passion to stop that.

To be clear, and I am going, just waiting on MNHQ to actually provide me with the actual text of the deleted posts... I am not frustrated at the deletions. I have not been contorting my speech either. When the new guidelines came in I took them at their word - that the site may not be for me.

The two posts that were deleted #1 mentioned ‘the handbook’ and how it specifically mentions exploiting trans rights to promote ‘paedosexuality’ and that there are now many posts across SM by paedophiles linking trans rights to promoting paedophilia as per ‘the handbook’ (check out videos on you tube tracking the activity of ‘heart progress’ and twitter #heartprogress). I explicitly stated I was not conflating trans rights with paedophilia in that post but it was deleted for apparently conflating trans rights with paedophilia (apparently a sweeping generalisation!)...

The second deleted post I stated my opinion that these safeguarding failures by organisations are not accidental but that I tend to assume they are due to infiltration of the organisations by the groups that benefit from the safeguarding failures. Apparently saying ‘TRAs and/or paedophiles’ is ‘making sweeping generalisations that TRAs are paedophiles’. I mentioned JS and MESMAC where there is proof this was true.

Given MN now takes reports from twitter and there has been significant activity by paedophiles under #loveisageless and #heartprogress posting the rainbow flag in support of trans rights and linking to and promoting paedophilia (because if a four year old can choose their gender then they can consent to sex with an adult is the link they are making, not me, paedophiles).

Anyway, it’s clear MN has been infiltrated. I no longer trust that this infiltration does not include infiltration by paedophiles TBH and I’m not sure MN have actually considered this given they have no clue about who anyone is on the internet or why they may be reporting. This is why I am going...

This post is clearly and obviously going to be my third deletion.

I don’t like causing trouble, and I had generally stayed out of all the complaining about the guidelines but TBH I think my principles mean I can’t justify not saying anything.

Thanks for all the appreciation though, I don’t like the attention of being a ‘personality’ 😩 I just enjoy discussing ideas but staying here directly contradicts my principles since they seem to be aiding and abetting another PIE situation...

for you all.

Adam Wagner @ adamwagner1
The debate over communism could shows the most important lesson of history is that humans will always be pulled back towards the same mistakes.

We mustn’t ever assume a lesson has been learned and be ever vigilant to make the case against our own natures to each new generation

Another lesson of the current debate. People will always assume what they are doing is for humanity’s ultimate benefit - as the communists and fascists and all of the worst regimes did. These people are not stupid or evil. Winning arguments therefore requires respect and patience

Adam Wagner is a human rights barrister and activist.

He has been very unimpressed by the Ash Sarkar stuff trying to normalise and minimise extremism.