Safeguarding girls and protecting women post Jimmy Saville & #metoo

[SpareRibFem]

I don't understand, there was a lot of hand wringing after the revelations about Jimmy Saville became widely accepted. #metoo there was more handwringing about the need to listen to women when they are telling you something that makes you uncomfortable.

Saville was allowed to get away with what he didn't because he created an aura of fear and people would afraid of the backlash if they spoke up. Those that did suffered.

We were promised something like that could never happen again...

And yet now despite many women and girls saying they feel afraid and uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with someone with a penis weren't told we're bigoted and verbally abused for saying that. Our employers are contacted and told we're bigots, we're doxxed.

And organisations like girl guides are going still further in saying it must be kept a secret when girls are being forced to sleep and change with a male bodied teen with a penis (& teen levels of hormones) and I'm not even allowed to identify what sex that male bodied teen with a penis is on a public forum

Girl Guides are taking that approach despite the knowledge that abusers use secrecy and shame to their advantage.

Just like with Saville anyone who excesses concerns is shouted down and accused of being the person in the wrong by the powerful. There is a culture of fear now. Celebrity voices in particular (thinking people like Munroe Bergdorf, Stephen Fry and long list of others) are given more weight to shout down women's concerns. Male bodied people feelings are paramount despite almost all sexual abusers being male bodied (and most of the tiny tiny number of female bodied sexual abusers working with and being in thrall to a male bodied abuser)

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

I think that it's rather obvious that pedophiles might want to target and infiltrate a parenting site, and that a parenting site should therefore have a plan in place for dealing with those attempts if and when they occur.

Deleting users who point out that they can see cause for concern in the way the tactics of one group have been very explicitly adopted by another group, and that they have concerns about safeguarding related to that, is not a good plan.

@JustineMumsnet
I wonder if you are aware of this thread?
It is an important one.

Offred I am so sorry
I hope somebody on here has copies of your posts and contact details because we need you to help us fight this darkness.
Your posts have been eye opening and I guess that was the problem.
I hope we can tag you in future posts if you continue reading.
Thanks for the insight, for the common sense, standing up for what's right.

I am so sorry they are going after you Offred. This is terrible. This is male pattern abuse attempting to undermine safeguarding and after demanding a conversation about these systems. We will continue to have this conversation and the cowardly abusive males doing this are screaming what they are. You cant identify into male pattern abuse being womanhood. You just announce yourself.

I finally went to my MP and he was horrified. Actually horrified.

Good. He should be horrified.

My MP has ignored me. A woman too!

When the demands of a movement are that childrens boundaries be redefined, safeguarding be liquidated, and women have the ability to describe dissonance between how a male presents and describes removed, then removing posts discussing the last time PIE used fluidity of sexual identity to hide, during a child abuse enquiry showing the consequences, is not fairness, its systems reproducing themselves and Mumsnet needing to consider what their forum hosts and what the legal responsibilities of those women are. Offred I really like your posts.

during a child abuse enquiry showing the consequences

This is what staggers me. We're having a national enquiry about useless safeguarding and institutions with blindspots resulting in industrial scale child abuse right now. We had trouble getting anyone to lead it because so many institutions had been compromised. Yet we're knowingly setting the conditions for the next one right now. It's insane. And it certainly isn't the way to protect any children, including the ones who question their gender.

Try tweeting any MPs who have refused to answer requests to meet regarding the GRA reform.

You don't have to give personal info just say you have contacted them and they have ignored you and ask how to get a meeting to discuss your concerns.

Check if they have local surgeried - best way is to book in through those if so.

I'd go see your MP or call them. Mine is horrified, absolutely horriied. By this point the extreme violent misogyny and threats are a demonstration, this is not two sides of a debate. this is male pattern abuse and thats never a debate.

BBC summary April 2018

'Child abuse inquiry: Institutions need change of culture - interim report'

A "change in culture" is needed within institutions and government if children are to be properly safeguarded, an interim report by the independent child sexual abuse inquiry has said.

It said "all too often" organisations put the reputation of their leaders and staff before the welfare of children and tackling abuse.

It called for society to have an "open and frank" conversation on the issue

Some 13 investigations, each a part of the inquiry, are still to be completed.

The inquiry was set up in 2014 to investigate historical allegations of child abuse, as well as claims that authorities, including the police, failed to properly investigate these allegations.

It has suffered delays and criticisms with several leaders standing down.

The report said children and young people had told the inquiry that sexual abuse was "rarely" discussed and that they needed better practical advice on staying safe .

Presenting 18 separate recommendations, it added that discussion was not enough and needed to be followed by action.

The inquiry's chair, Prof Alexis Jay, said she expected to make "substantial progress" on the rest of the inquiry in the next two years.

She said: "We have much work still to do and evidence to hear - we will hold a further eight public hearings in the next 12 months alone - but we are making good progress.

"I indicated in December 2016 that I expected the inquiry to have made substantial progress by 2020. I believe we are on target to do that."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43894821

Mumsnet is not public figures. This isnt activism. This is mothers beoing targeted, so they cant even have a space to speak. this is not debate or any kind of political activism.

Mumsnet is not public figures. This isnt activism. This is mothers beoing targeted, so they cant even have a space to speak. this is not debate or any kind of political activism

This!

What in the world is going on. Same old evils, over and over.

I am so thankful tht so mny of you put so much time and effor into this and for being vigilant on our behalf, and behalf of people who will never even know it.

I acn't property articulate my thoughts this week and am so glad htt there are women out there with brains better thn mine who can say what neds to be said and ho atually really know things and care.

I am worried that posters liek Offed are leaving. To go where? This site is so important for saying really important truths. but i understnad the issues with MHHQ nd stuff. Good grief.

thank you fo the post redtoothbrush We mustn’t ever assume a lesson has been learned and be ever vigilant to make the case against our own natures to each new generation

Another lesson of the current debate. People will always assume what they are doing is for humanity’s ultimate benefit - as the communists and fascists and all of the worst regimes did. These people are not stupid or evil. Winning arguments therefore requires respect and patience

I wanted to say totalitarianism in relpy to somethign the other day but can't get my thoughts out (I have brain condition).

Please all be safe

Offred if you can come to Leeds on the 1st, do, I cant find you someone who will put you up overnight. Come to that meeting on the 1st in Leeds.

Thanks Lisa - I'm going to find out my MP's next surgery date. Funny, as she replied previously regarding an issue surrounding schools admissions, straight away, but GRA? Silence speaks volumes.

I didnt even ask to see my MP about the actual issues, I wrote to him about the extent of the harassment. GRA came up and he was horrified about that too, its a safeguarding debate he says, yeah, I says.

At this point, it might be better to come at things at an angle. It generally is on issues like this. It meets less resistance and helps to reframe debates in a more productive way.

By that I mean, what is your concern: eg safeguarding in general. Then frame it that way, rather than trying to go straight head on at the subject by saying the GRA as your central and opening point.

This shifts the emphasis of what your concern is, and it does not appear to attack trans rights, its about upholding and supporting frameworks from all potential issues including the misguided well meaning.

Indierockandroll
there are some recent articles which highlight some of the safeguarding concerns (there are many more of course):

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action

James Kirkup: blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/are-female-prisoners-at-risk-from-transgender-inmates/

Also re conflicing rights, this one demonstrates well:
inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

The thread's moved on a bit but I just want to stand up and say that it's shocking that Lang's post was deleted. No talk guidelines were broken.

That is not ok @MNHQ - what are you trying to do here? You're undermining a valid debate about safeguarding of children by deleting critical parts of the discussion. This is silencing women.

That post should be reinstated. It's not ok to delete very clear posts about risks to safeguarding (and incidentally risks to trans kids) because someone misinterprets them, no matter how much their feelings are hurt by their misinterpretation of what is actually written.

Thanks R0wan.

@MNHQ why was Lang's post deleted please?

That twitter thread is terrifying

Offred .

Gay men had every right to challenge the constant conflation of peadophilia and their sexuality/ When your demands are that spaces of safety from male violence are ended, children are taught to have no boundaries, that established safeguarding and protective frameworks are opened to you, you dont get to screech every time someone mentions peadophilia. You are demanding a discussion whree that is central, you certainly dont get to police that with intimidation, abuse, coercion and then have noone notice and claim its activism. Its not. THis is a website for mothers bound by these laws and responsibilities and it is unacceptable to simultaneously demand that conversation and then abuse people for having it. Its an admission. Not a debate.

I think parents need more confidence. We have had years of the mantra that most child abuse is within the family. I think this has been used to shut down any talk of outside abuse from predators. There are probably links as to why people from dysfunctional families become abusers/abused etc. But this does not mean that abuse is confined to family situations.

There are millions of parents out there who are doing a good job, but concerned parents are often accused of helicoptering, being overbearing, controlling. When the DC are older, it is hard to get help for things like anorexia as they are Gillick competent or within a couple of years of going to adult services and they won't do anything unless the DC goes and asks for help. Which leaves the parents trying to do their best with what they have. When things are not going right and the parent is feeling lost and needs help, it is easy in this climate to disassociate the parents from the child, and it easy for groups to do this for their own purposes if the parents don't toe the line.