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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

A woman is an adult female human

999 replies

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 10:18

Of the sex whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young.

Let's just say this while we still can. Because it's true, and however many people try to make us lie about it, or remain silent, it will always be true.

In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

It hurts MY feelings to see 'transwomen are women'. It damages MY mental health to see that, it makes ME feel erased and MY identity feel destroyed. I have a voice and I deserve that voice. WE deserve it.

I am Spartacus. A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

If you report me, or get me banned you shoot the messenger. Because this is true and will always be true. And this day, this day of a lie, I WILL say it.

#Spartacus

OP posts:
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Ineedacupofteadesperately · 03/07/2018 16:11

Datun, really truly we are NOT preventing this from being said. er, you are, see below

If you used any of the words in the OP as part of another discussion, in the course of making your point, they would be allowed to stand because they "discuss biology and scientific evidence". I really would ask everyone here to take on board the fact that it's really not the words in themselves. The problem is that those words are being weaponised on this thread, which implicitly calls on posters to repeat them to the point where the volume cannot but feel hostile to a trans person who came across it in Active. Not a TRA, just any individual trans person trying to live their life.

Who decides if the words are weaponised? Saying we can say something sometimes but only in certain ill defined circumstances is abusive. It's saying we have to walk on eggshells.There are threads on here where lots of people have disagreed with me, so the volume felt hostile to me, are you going to delete every thread where someone feels it's hostile? That's all of AIBU gone.

How about anyone so fragile that lots of women agreeing about female biology feels hostile NOT READ THE THREAD or fwr at all. Maybe mumsnet isn't for them?

I bet there are parts of the internet where people discuss breastfeeding and how they think bf over a year is weird / wrong. I disagree and have bf both dc over a year. Guess what? I don't seek out those forums.

The volume of repetition is because a lot of women agree. A major part of many posts has not only been about biological facts but been about how hurt and threatened and scared women feel by the changing of the definition woman and the denial of scientific fact. You are silencing a very large number of women who say this ideology harms them because of the hurt feelings of a small group who this forum isn't even for! So their feelings are more important than ours. That is what you are saying.

How creepy is that?

DiabolicalMess · 03/07/2018 16:14

Why can't trans people be happy to be called trans people?! Why can't they take ownership of being called trans and be proud of it? That's what they are afterall.

Beachcomber · 03/07/2018 16:18

I really would ask everyone here to take on board the fact that it's really not the words in themselves. The problem is that those words are being weaponised on this thread

Did a man tell MNHQ to say that?

I'm only asking because it sounds like the sort of thing you hear in trans ideology. Women's words being "literal violence" and all that.

Now our words about ourselves are "weapons".

It's pathetic HQ.

seafret · 03/07/2018 16:19

I really would ask everyone here to take on board the fact that it's really not the words in themselves. The problem is that those words are being weaponised on this thread, which implicitly calls on posters to repeat them to the point where the volume cannot but feel hostile to a trans person who came across it in Active. Not a TRA, just any individual trans person trying to live their life.

Words weaponised and inflammatory?! WTF?

This thread is soothing to many women, the repetition is grounding and solidarity in the face of being redfined and losing sex protections under the law.. the repetition also allows women who are tired and ill etc to join in with the solidarity without having to find new words to say what has been said so well already. It is the #metoo of women who have been gaslighted and mentally and physically beaten with sexism and misogyny, or had dealings with people with personality disorders/ MH disorders etc.

oh.. wait, you mean inflammatory to some trans people because it reminds them that they don't accept the sex of the body they were born in, or feel strongly that they want to behave like the gender stereotypes of the opposite sex, or feel like something else that is trans in some way.

Well, that is the problem with granting some people access to a legal category that they don't naturally or materially qualify for solely in the hopes that it will appease their mental anguish.

Although perceived as a 'kindness' it is a sham and legal fudge and it was cruel to give vulnerable and anguished trans people they impresion that they could change sex and have the endoremsnent of all others, and wrong and abusive for judges and legislators to give away access to something that was not theirs to give. And simultaneously place limitations to any females who want to be men, because "it would deprive male heirs of their rightful expectation to inherit" and the Queen can control hereditary titles because the she is the Queen and it is in her gift. This is not democratically motivated and liberal does not always mean good and kind.

Woman has a reality and a definition that is in use and has necessarily specific meaning. We are entitled to defend keeping that word when we need it. We have not fallen out of fashion like other words and been co-opted by later generation - oh well, maybe with womb transplants from men (coming from the transmen?) the actual plan is to have the sex class of women fall out of use.

Trans people should (and do) have their human rights protected and no one should be discriminated against for being gender non-conforming. We don't need to say transwomen are women to give them compassion and understanding and safety, but women shouldn't be forced to lie and to step aside to always put other people's feelings first.

I thought we were all against fake news? This is like the Truman Show where some trans people must be protected from the truth at all costs and we have to run around in front of them changing the props and re-writing the internet to maintain the lie. That is absurd and abusive.

And you @MNHQ are complicit with abusers and their enablers when you see women having boundaries, showing solidarity and being reassured by truth and mistake it for inciting hatred or being mean. It is gaslighting to even hint at such a thing. I don't spend time on the pregnancy boards, because I am stuggling with infertility but god damm I would pay for that boards to exist to support other women.

And actually I do actively read about experiences like conceiving and giving birth or toddler tantrums that remind me painfully of my own grief and loss, because it makes me a better and more compassionate human to try to understand what others are going through and to learn about their lives and difficulties and needs even if I am often reminded of things I will never have. My pain is not the only pain in the world.

I am more and more horrified by the day.

Pratchet · 03/07/2018 16:20

Yay Beachcomber.

OP posts:
MrsRRR · 03/07/2018 16:22

Seafret....Yes!!!

Melamin · 03/07/2018 16:22

I don't know. The obsession of the activists with secrecy makes little sense. The trans person DC went out with was totally upfront. Totally upfront about the op and everything. Did lots of speed dating etc and seems to have found a partner who is pleased to have them in full knowledge of their history. They have a job, and have got onto higher ed courses with no problem. I expect that all their friends and family knew anyway, and they had an extensive set of acquaintances and wider family so a secret change over would never have worked.

OvaHere · 03/07/2018 16:22

No one is taking the term woman away from you.

This banner at the recent SF Dyke Parade references 'women and c*s women'

Clearly to some people women are already a subset of a category they see primarily belonging to transwomen.

This should be a wake up call to every female.

A woman is an adult female human
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/07/2018 16:22

I do not have a problem with trans women - wear what you want, pink, skirts, high heels, make up - identify as a woman if that makes you feel better.

But do not think it is OK for you to trample on the rights of those of us who were born female, and grew up female, with all the societal and physical disadvantages that implies. Don’t expect us to prioritise your validation over our needs - for example, if you are a trans woman who is a nurse, a woman’s need to be comfortable enough to get a smear is greater than your need to be validated as a female nurse by doing her smear. Ditto the needs of a rape victim being greater than your desire to be a rape counsellor simply by declaring you are a woman.

Women - natal women - have had to fight tooth and nail for rights - like the right to be an MP, to compete at elite level sport on a level and fair playing field, to be considered men’s equals in business - if any man can declare they are a woman and demand a place on an all-woman short list, or compete in the women’s version of their sport, that is male privilege in action - it says, basically, ‘Women - we don’t want you to have even those things you have fought for - even though natal women are underrepresented in so many fields, and women’s sport is hard enough, without having to compete with people who have grown up with significant physical advantages - we don’t care about that - we are going to march in and you can just fuck off back to oblivion.

It was a trans activist who said ”Women - enjoy your erasure” - how is that OK?

Trans rights matter - but they should not be at the expense of women.

Women should not be abused, called names, threatened with rape, silenced, for speaking up. But it is happening - and the people doing it do not look like women - they look like men.

Hint - if trans women are women, they should be supporting women, not trying to erase them, silence them, threaten them.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 03/07/2018 16:22

Oh and not only are their feelings more important than ours, you are saying we can't discuss our feelings. Mums can't discuss their feelings about factual things that affect their lives on mumsnet. Hmmmm.

MrsRRR · 03/07/2018 16:22

Mnhq have got this so so wrong...

littlbrowndog · 03/07/2018 16:23

Beachcomber Star

littlbrowndog · 03/07/2018 16:27

And seafret and STDG

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 16:29

seafret You've articulated something I have wanted to say for a while, thank you. Flowers

MrsRRR · 03/07/2018 16:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 03/07/2018 16:32

As the thread is still standing perhaps HQ are less worried. Maybe they thought that it would run to 1000 posts of women saying transwomen are men, the same way that many transactivists do with TWAW.

I don't think that will ever happen, because women actually have an argument. And can provide it, back it up, and articulate it. In any number of different ways and on several different levels.

It's not necessary to have a thought terminating cliche.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 16:37

I think this thread demonstrates why this is a women's issue.
It centres women.

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 16:39

As I said earlier. We all know the arguments on both sides. It's just that we don't agree.

There aren't arguments on your side. Just TWAW! TWAW! TWAW! Bigot!

All opinions are not of equal validity.

Fakeplasticflowers · 03/07/2018 16:39

seafret I love your post - perfect. Flowers

pissedonatrain · 03/07/2018 16:39

I RTFT and wow
It's so amazingly offensive for a man to try to appropriate my gender, to try to change the terms for my gender, and then to try to tell us women that the majority of women are in approval of this bs.

I'm a woman. I'm not CIS anything and some man is not going tell me what words I can and can't use. How extremely offensive and misogynistic. I think women have been quiet about this long enough.

Transwomen, you aren't a woman. Period. You are the ones who are segregating yourself by using the word trans in the first place. Why is that even necessary? I haven't seen any "transwomen" fight for anything related to real women; just bitching and moaning how women aren't including you. By calling yourself trans instead of just woman, you are excluding yourself.

If you want to be a transwoman then fight for your own separate gender ID. Women don't have to include you because you aren't a woman. Doesn't matter how much you repeat it or try to bully us women, you aren't a woman. I guess since I'm Hispanic and I decide I want to be Chinese, then I'm going to be all offended because I can't be Chinese even though I really really want to be. Confused

pissedonatrain · 03/07/2018 16:42

@OvaHere

wtf is the difference between a woman and a cis woman???

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 03/07/2018 16:43

Loving your work Pratchet Star

seafret · 03/07/2018 16:48

Shucks, thank you Blush we have all said similar I think.

I need this board and women like you all. You have inspired me and kept me sane and helped me to help others, to properly help, not just appease or pander.

Your/ our experiences, wisdom and solid reasoning are what the world needs in the face of sacrifices to worship the gods of Irrational Feelings. Hmm, yes, it always was the women and children who got sacrificed wasn't it. :(

tinytemper66 · 03/07/2018 16:48

Are we not allowed to say a woman has a vagina and a man has a penis!

BlessBlessYawn · 03/07/2018 16:50

Thank you for this thread Pratchet.

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