Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

Daim, I am not in a position to ‘enforce’ anything and neither are the vulnerable women and girls your proposals will negatively affect, as well you know.

I would however, suggest a wee-break before popping to the green grocers, as leaving a bag of phallic shaped veg on a toilet floor is likely unhygienic.

Good point, SpartacusAutisticus. Who told you that you could end up a registered sex offender through doing sex work, Snappity? Because if they lied about that, what might be a reason?

The thick plottens.

Just so we're clear, this person can come into female sex segregated spaces no problem?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.en.vogue.fr/amp/vogue-hommes/fashion/diaporama/15-things-to-know-about-the-transsexual-model-laith-ashley/26739

lemon

Snappity’s idea upthread? Do you agree with her that women who have issues sharing spaces with transwomen should have access to segregated spaces?

Oh goodness, thats great. Fab idea

So trans men using women's spaces - here's what I don't get. How on earth are you planning to know whether a male presenting person is a trans man or a sufficiently ambiguous looking actual man? Trans men pass way more readily than trans women, and lots of younger men have quite effeminate facial features. Tough to tell one from the other in a lineup.

The concern being predatory males getting access to women's spaces is surely made worse if you actively encourage trans men to use them. Make saying he is a trans man is a sod of a lot easier and faster to achieve than man becoming trans woman. Unless you're looking in pants you'd have no way to know.

I might not like the idea of Laith Ashley using the ladies (because I would probably register them as a man) but I accept that I would have no grounds to object to them being in there, if they preferred using the ladies to the gents (which I think is unlikely anyway)

You do know, though, that most transmen don't pass nearly as well, don't you? So most transmen would probably register with me as "butch woman"

I know Rufus! It’s some real actual progress on here!

As I said on another thread, it really reminded me of the time where SupermatchGame said

If you see trans women as men and feel that you are being forced to accept them in female space I can see how that could feel like having your boundaries violated

Just fab to see some understanding and empathy going on here. Fair lifts the spirits!

Agreed SuperDandy - the Attitude cover I shared earlier shows another convincing trans man. I certainly would never guess this person was trans and would be surprised to come across them in a female space. They look a lot more male than a lot of the men I know!

Daim, do you genuinely believe that Laith Ashley wants to access female sex-segregated spaces?

Or are you exploiting a real-life transman’s personal appearance to score a political point?

Hopefully Laith will never need to access the female spaces that Laith is legally entitled to use (such as a bed on a gynaecological ward) but I hope that should Laith ever need to they will be treated with appropriate dignity and respect and a suitably tailored care and accommodation will be made.

OlennasWimple trans men pass much easier than trans women. Once a person has grown facial hair it's pretty easy to pass as male.

Doesn't matter how many times people tell you, you just aren't listening, are you, Daim? Producing photos of some random off the web does not a gotcha moment make. The butchest of lesbians are still obviously female to other women. Even if they look macho their smell, their voices, their shape and proportions - every little detail - normally makes their sex clear to a questioning glance I've seen gay men describe transmen as Hobbits, because they say they're short, heavily bearded and have far wider hips than men.

If a woman passes as masculine enough to use the gents and wants to do so, it's up to her and the men whose space she's invading. Imo they have every right to peacefully eject her.

Absolutely lemon

The application of the law specifically states that the gender reassigned may use whichever facility they choose. I assume this is because females who have gender reassignment are viewed as needing the safety, privacy and dignity, provided by the women's loo.

"You do know, though, that most transmen don't pass nearly as well, don't you? So most transmen would probably register with me as "butch woman"

The issue here is that some people seem to think the rest of us have no experience whatsoever of being challenged going into the ladies. Lots of us do! My missus frequently gets challenged, I was once amusingly chased across Charles de Gaulle airport by someone shouting in french, who stopped and apologized profusely once I turned around. Because rather than being objectionable, these situations show that things are working, that women feel they can legitimately challenge someone going into the ladies who they fear might not actually be female. And those of us challenged don't mind it, because we are female and we understand why (even if occassionally you feel like saying -- really, is this all it takes to confuse you! )

Although if we had the third option, then any butch women who did feel it was an imposition or annoyance could go for the gender-neutral loos. As could any camp gay men, drag queens, drag kings, transwomen etc (as long as they had sufficiently good mirrors, which was always the excuse from the drag queens as to why they kept using the ladies at my local gay centre many years ago!).

I've seen gay men describe transmen as Hobbits, because they say they're short, heavily bearded and have far wider hips than men.

That's brilliant, although I'm a bit concerned by the suggestion that T also gives you hard, hairy feet................

If gay men have come up with a slang term, says a lot about perceptions. Could have been worse, could have been dwarfs given the short and bearded (although strictly speaking did Tolkien hobbits have beards? And then camp gay men, they could be elves, and the heavy S&M/leather and bears could be orcs.............. A whole new perspective on the gay scene!)

Women have facial hair too, Daim, we really do.

And the Attitude front cover? That's Laith Ashley too, not a different "convincing trans man"...

Would be great if daim felt able to comment too?

Even if you don’t agree with Snappity and I daim, maybe we can explain why segregation is sometimes important to meet the needs of both women and transwomen, and this might help you see our pov?

You can include me in the lemon and snappity camp

I think its awesome that people are becoming a bit more open minded

I'm surprised posters keep focusing on Laith Ashley, and that no one has mentioned that transman who does porn with gay men whose name I have totally forgottem and I'm not googling on my work machine.............

Buck Angel? Still not googling it though............

What's that rufus, snappity agreed with us? That's fantastic!!

Kudos snappity, not many people have the balls to admit they have changed their minds

Sorry I was getting Laith mixed up with this dude! Lots of hunky trans men around it seems.

I am all for sex segregation. The exceptions in the Equality Act ensures it is lawful to trans trans women differently to women in some circumstances.

I am all for sex segregation. The exceptions in the Equality Act ensures it is lawful to trans trans women differently to women in some circumstances.

So you would call this sex segregation then? That’s interesting because Snappity wasn’t sure about terming it that.

But great to hear that you, Snappity, SupermatchGame (and me!) are all in agreement that women who have issues sharing spaces with transwomen need access to separate spaces.