Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

Yep @LemonJello in certain circumstances. A sexual abuse support group? Yes. The ladies loo at work? No.

It’s so positive to have this as a starting point for discussions.

Just a shame Damn’s not on board, but given that they want to shut down Mumsnet I don’t think they will be interested in the strides forward we have made today

Now I’m going out to enjoy the sun!

It’s so positive to have this as a starting point for discussions.

Just a shame Damn’s not on board, but given that they want to shut down Mumsnet I don’t think they will be interested in the strides forward we have made today

Now I’m going out to enjoy the sun!

Yep @LemonJello in certain circumstances. A sexual abuse support group? Yes. The ladies loo at work? No.

Why do you get to decide what women should be ok with? I disagree with your opinion.

Danielle Muscato (good lord how is that a woman?!)

How rude! Is it because her appearance isn't as feminine as you'd like?

Daim - your second example, Aydian Dowling talks about a public loo experience very candidly here:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1xAcJ2qi1o

Seems to me that the best options for Aydian would be either neutral third spaces or more private, locakable spaces in men’s rooms and that in some situations Aydian is willing to trade declaring his birth sex status in order to access female facilities (and ask staff for support and assistance) but that is somewhat dependent on how Aydian is feeling in the moment.

I 100% support Aydian’s right to privacy and dignity when accessing public toilets and support legislation to provide the same privacy and dignity for all.

How rude! Is it because her appearance isn't as feminine as you'd like?

The double standards here are disgusting.

It's not down to you to decide which single sex spaces women are expected to lose, Daim. It's our courtesy and female socialization that have been exploited by transactivists and now that several hundred miles have been taken instead of the proferred inch, many women have reconsidered.

Own goals, half the time. Transactivists say "educate yourself" - I did and it totally endorsed my gender critical views. They say women are lying about male violence and we produce statistics. And so on.

The loo at work is required by law to have single sex provisions for both males and females.

It's not down to you to decide which single sex spaces women are expected to lose, Daim

This.

It's not down to you to decide which single sex spaces women are expected to lose, Daim

Nope, it's written into the Equality Act. Which isn't set to change.

The double standards here are disgusting.

I absolutely agree

Gut instinct is biased.

Too bad. Read the Gift of Fear. That's why we don't want male people in female spaces. We need to be able to act on red flags. Like men deliberately invading the boundaries of women knowing that many women don't consent. Which is a pretty massive one.

in certain circumstances. A sexual abuse support group? Yes. The ladies loo at work? No.

Well this is where we start from, yes.

We all agree that women who have issues sharing spaces with transwomen should have the right to segregated spaces.

You think that their are only some situations when this is acceptable.

Snappity thinks that the women should have a doctors letter in order to access these segregated spaces.

I think that if we accept the basic principle (that women who have issues sharing spaces with transwomen should have the right to segregated spaces) then we are accepting that sharing spaces with transwomen has a negative impact on these women, enough to warrant separate spaces.

I don’t see then how we can say that this negative impact is acceptable in some circumstances arbitrarily determined by someone other than the woman in question?

I've shared this so many times on here but I'll share it again. The Equality Act states it is lawful to treat trans women differently than women. Providers of single sex services are able to exclude trans women if they wish. This law already exists but everyone is pretending it doesn't for some unknown reason.

@LemonJello if the starting point is from the existing law then yes, I support the Equality Act as it stands. If was any threat to the EA exceptions I would oppose it but there isn't.
One TRA group proposed an amendment in parliament but it was rejected.

The self ID proposal is a completely different law to the Equality Act. There seems to be consistent confusion between the two.

daimbars

It's not down to you to decide which single sex spaces women are expected to lose, Daim

Nope, it's written into the Equality Act. Which isn't set to change.

Well this is the bottom line, isn't it? We don't want men in there, you do.

It's my opinion that men who want access to women, when those women don't want them to, are in the wrong.

Because none of this is about pissing, or changing clothes. It's all about validation. Hence the lack of trans support for a third space.

Anyone who advocates for ignoring what women want, when they are vulnerable or naked, is wrong, in my opinion.

Anyone who advocates for ignoring what women want, when they are vulnerable or naked, is wrong, in my opinion.

Hear hear.

If was any threat to the EA exceptions I would oppose it but there isn't.

There certainly has been, WPUK did a great roundup of all the organisations who wanted it amended here:

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

We hear a lot about organisations who don’t invoke the exemptions, Topshop, Girl Guides, etc.

Do we have a list of organisations that do invoke the exemptions? It would be great to see them being used in practice. Daim? Do you know of any?

I believe it's called exemptions, not exceptions?

Is there a difference, here?

Daim who the fuck are you to decide whether Danielle Muscato is a woman? Was that a joke?

An exemption means a rule doesn't apply to you
An exception is a deviation from a rule that does apply to you.

Theres a big difference. Some organisations are exempt.

But if you accept the definition of woman as being a feeling, then how can you say that Muscato isn’t a woman? Surely that individual sums up everything that is wrong about self id and already they have forced themselves into women’s spaces at the expense of women’s suffering. What makes that person less of a woman than anyone who claims they are a woman? And what can protect us against people like that? The answer is biology but that keeps getting called bigotry.

Thank you UpstartCrow.

As I understand it the official word is exemptions. I.e. not applicable.

Very informative UpstartCrow, thanks.