Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

ereshkigal 's experience is sadly not that unusual.

I can tell you that if women cannot be guaranteed a female hcp or that other patients in hospital wards are biological females, there are MANY women whose partners will not allow them to access this treatment.

It is disproportionately (though not exclusively) true of women from minority ethnic groups, and vulnerable, less-educated women.

But hey, fuck them - as long as no one gets misgendered eh?

Daim, to bring it back to your OP, the way I perceive the current situation is that when something becomes 'trans-inclusive' it seems to be to the exclusion of something else.
As an example, CRUK dropping the word 'woman' from some cancer outreach; or definitions of homosexuality needing to include people of the opposite sex, or feminist movements having to include men.
There's bound to be fault on both sides, but it seems that at the moment the trans movement is focused on Occupying the place of something else, rather than expanding the spaces to suit everyone.
Whether that's toilets, magazines, medical advice & provision, places in sports, jobs on boards, representation in politics and so on ad infinitum.
I don't want to give way to make space for people who are trans - they are more than welcome to stand beside me, but not take the space that is meant for me and other women.

Bowl "a third space however, would need to be self contained."

Well that makes more sense, for sure. Doesn't that take us right back to unisex self contained loos as being a good solution? Maybe alongside family loo type spaces, like the family's cubicles in modernised changing areas.

"I’m glad you agree, because That is what will happen if self ID comes through. "

To be clear, again, I'm not sold on the idea of self ID at all. Other posters often make the assumption that I'm in favour of it, and your post reads as if you you think I am too. It doesn't seem to make any difference how many times I say that, but just in case anyone's actually reading instead of either ignoring me or putting words in my mouth, I'm not pro self id as currently proposed, for a lot of the reasons that come up around safeguarding.

Well that makes more sense, for sure. Doesn't that take us right back to unisex self contained loos as being a good solution?

No. You’d need to replace say thirty or forty toilet cubicles which open into an open area (sinks and dryers etc) with individual lockable floor to ceiling rooms. Very few venues, or buildings have space for this.

And no, the solution is also NOT floor to ceiling cubes opening into a communal area is not the answer either. Why? Well women need that open space as private too.

I'm sorry you had to go through that Ereshkigal I trust you got away from him in the end?

I did, thanks.

Seems this thread got stuck in the loo again.

Also sorry to hear about your experiences Ereshkigal I hope life is now better for you now

Would be interested to hear from any trans posters on this? Would you be happy to wait a couple of years after starting hormone treatment to use open female changing rooms? (Assuming private cubicles are not available).

This seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Why do you keep insisting this is reasonable to you when the women here are saying it's not reasonable to them. We said no. No.

Glad to hear it Ereshkigal 

My ex girlfriend used to beat me black & blue so I've only ever experienced violence and threat from another women. Perhaps that's why sex segregation doesn't feel so important to me - being with my male gay and trans friends always felt safer.

Ihaventgottimeforthis I hadn't considered trans women not being included with all women before I read the threads on here. I was so surprised that people see such a big difference between us and consider trans women to be male. I've always accepted them as our sisters and never really questioned it. My RL experience of trans women certainly doesn't reflect what I read on here.

These people who don't hear NO are dangerous
Oh come on I'll only put it in for a second
NO
Oh come on I smoke menthol you won't get pregnant
NO
etc

cannot tolerate anyone born male in a female space

Can I just post this here, on its own, just to admire the pure audaciousness of this statement.

Females should roll over and tolerate stuff?

What on earth is the definition of a 'female space' if we have to be told to tolerate people who are born males in that space.

Tolerate is an interesting word in the lexicon. Sometimes it's applied as 'tolerance', as in accepting those who have a different belief system, etc. (Ie 'intolerant people' = racists, homophobes)

And sometimes it's applied as in to deal with something unpleasant or annoying, or to continue existing despite bad or difficult conditions - tolerating difficult situations, medicine side-effects, etc.

I wonder which one we'd apply in this situation?

Again, I'm not sure how many different ways we can say "no" that haven't been said already. No, it is not the role of women to tolerate things that make us uncomfortable and unsafe. No, penises in women's spaces aren't fine if the person with the penis waits 2/5/whatever years before taking their penis in those spaces. No, a piece of paper doesn't make any difference, especially given that nobody is allowed to ask to see it anyway. No, it wouldn't be OK if we were allowed to ask, and also no, we didn't fail to notice the way you attempted to shift the goalposts there.

No. Nein, non, nyet. Cocks do not belong in spaces where women are going to be undressing, unless they belong to very small children who're in the care of their mother/other female relative.

Sorry to all those who don't like images instead of words (well, it's a word!)

Exactly Angry

Again. No.

It's like living with a tedious teenager.
No
ah but...
Nope
what if
NO
You're soo mean... you don't understand me
It's still NO

I am always impressed by the audacity of the claim that one can mature to adulthood in such a cloistered environment that one is unaware that male violence exists in the world.
Ignorance is a choice.

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known. Every human being in the world has been touched by it.

Sorry to all those who don't like images instead of words (well, it's a word!)

I like your image!

Literally speechless. DARVO.

Man in my changing room. I say excuse me this is the ladies.
He says I am a transwoman.

Then what do I say?

You do what women have always done for as long as I can remember.
You leave.
It used to be that women would leave and report the man in the ladies but according to the transgender advocates that is now illegal and so you might be charged with another female on female crime by the misogynists in blue.

daim I'm sorry you were in an abusive relationship. However domestic violence isn't what we're discussing here, and your personal experience doesn't negate the ubiquity of male violence.

A harmless trans women has doxxed all the Man Friday members and published their names online.

Perhaps that's why sex segregation doesn't feel so important to me - being with my male gay and trans friends always felt safer.

Thanks Daim. Sorry you went through that. I'm glad you understand why your feelings do not represent everyone either and that sex segregated female spaces are so important to me and many women, and the need for safety, privacy and dignity, looking at who is more violent and sexually violent statistically out of women and men.

I feel very safe with my gay male friends too, but that's because they're my friends and I know them. I'd never expect another woman to assume that they're harmless to women just because I know that they are.

No quite. Why would they? I feel the same about men I know and care about.

I mean, DH is the gentlest man I've ever known but how would a stranger know that?

daimbars when you say

Perhaps that's why sex segregation doesn't feel so important to me - being with my male gay and trans friends always felt safer.

What do you mean my male trans? Trans women or trans men?