Supporting men who break stereotypes.

[lurker33]

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

Good for you. The GRA has been in place 14 years now so good luck with repealing that 😂

Well, with the GRC I can't see how anyone can 'live as a woman' if they're a man so I guess it's moot anyway...

It would be interesting to challenge this in court to see what 'living as a woman' actually means...

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

Hear hear.... I cannot imagine any woman on this site disagreeing with you.....Crucial in playing its part in dismantling toxic masculinity

Ok, so I've just been deleted for saying something similar on another thread.

Yes, I can see how it might offend some people, but I am also offended by some men's appropriation of womanhood.

Women are not a feeling, some gender stereotype or some men's fantasy. The only thing I have in common with all women is my biology. I do not, and will never share that with a man, whatever surgery he may have had.

A man cannot become a women because he does not share that biology. Anything else is based on stereotyping.

If I'm correct, then a man cannot 'live as a woman', and therefore it should be impossible to obtain a GRC because that is one of the criteria.

Can we not even discuss this?

It's a bit of a pointless discussion imo seeing as it's been law for 13 years. A bit like starting a thread saying you agree with apartheid. Things have moved on.

The thing is daimbars, laws can be tested in court, so, no, it's not too late.

Lol, apartheid? You do realise that black people and white people share the same biology and there is no reason to separate us? Men and women are clearly different, and we all know why we need sex segregated spaces.

Not all discrimination is bad. Not all segregation is bad.

I'll humour you as nobody else is talking to you.

How exactly do you propose bringing about the repeal of the GRA?

Will all the thousands of people who have legally changed gender get to keep their acquired gender or do they have to change back again?

How would you suggest supporting people who have had gender reassignment surgery and need to be on HRT for life?

I agree with you, and I'm not humouring you.

I don't think the clock needs changing back, what's done now is done, however, it's about time there was serious debate and some in depth risk assessments, and consultations with women, who are the ones who will be affected.
And not the type of discussion that ends with them being called bigots.

There is a reason why sex segregation is necessary. Some people are forgetting that on their clash to be inclusive.

Tbh daimbars, I don't know about repealing the law, only that laws can be tested in court. I'm not a lawyer so no idea if this is even possible. Perhaps you could force the courts somehow to define what 'living as a woman' or 'living as a man' means, with no recourse to stereotypes.

I have no problem supporting those that have gender reassignment surgery in the same way that I have no problem supporting others who have a mental health issue. We are still allowed to say that gender dysphoria is a mental health issue now aren't we? Yes, they need to be treated with compassion, but not at the expense of other vulnerable groups, and not by being economical with the truth.

Lurker33

Agree with your opening post.

however, laws dont always need repealing. New laws get made all the time which make old ones obsolete, reinterpret them, etc. It is a continual process. It is never game over. Dont listen to the naysayer trolls and certainly dont get disheartened.

I think this must be a wind up or else the OP has been teleported here from the 1950s

On the off chance that it's not, OP it might help to do some minimal research before starting a thread like this. You could start with the NHS website.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Relevant screen shot attached. No it isn't a mental illness.

Thanks Norther.

I agree with you.

no it isn't a mental illness

What is it then?

Thanks Daimbars, a medical condition and not a mental health issue. Got it.

Oh, and that was only decided on Monday, and not in the 1950s, by the WHO who appear to have capitulated to the trans lobby.

metro.co.uk/2018/06/20/gender-dysphoria-no-longer-listed-mental-disorder-7645770/

So, what's your point?... Are you saying they don't need compassion and don't need any medical help at all then?

Now where's my pinny...

Good for you. The GRA has been in place 14 years now so good luck with repealing that

Some of the women's rights laws that the EA repealed had been in place for nearly 100 years. Whiskity tiskity erased in the name of equality.

I think this must be a wind up or else the OP has been teleported here from the 1950s

Er, no, 2004 maybe.

Trouble with your MN activities Daim, you're just not remotely consistent. "Yay self ID!" here, "I sincerely want to protect women's rights to single sex spaces in the Equality Act " there.

It's transparent.

Oh, and that was only decided on Monday, and not in the 1950s, by the WHO who appear to have capitulated to the trans lobby.

Daimbars, if you keep misrepresenting you are going to run afoul of the new rules.

Course, it not being a mental illness is going to make it harder and harder to get surgery and hormones for free innit. It’s pretty awful for those suffering from dysphoria, being chucked under the bus by the WHO.

OP out of interest what differences have you noticed from the time period 2004-now to prior to 2004?

Did you oppose the GRA in 2004? If not why not?

What has happened to make you feel so strongly about a law passed in 2004 that you want to repeal it?

Daimbars, its because it didn't come up on my radar in 2004, an tbh I didn't really think about it very hard until recently.

I have children of primary school age and soon they are going to come into contact with this damaging narrative. I really fear for them.

Ah lurker33 it's all falling into place. You have primary school children, you joined Mumsnet, you came across a post on FWR which made out that transgender people would somehow pose a threat to you or your children. You believed it.

Despite this not being on your radar in RL you read some posts on Mumsnet and now think that being transgender should 'not be allowed' and a law should be passed to strip trans people of their legal right to change gender. You start a post on a public message forum read by millions of people declaring a vital piece of human rights legislation should be repealed.

FYI this would cause chaos and devastation to thousands of people who just want to peacefully go about their lives.

This is exactly why the whole issue is so damaging, and why Mumsnet should think really carefully about whether it wants to host this debate.

I'm sure you meant it flippantly and probably started this thread while making a cup of tea and playing with your kids and not really thinking about what you were saying. But it's a bit of a shit thing to do.

Oh dear I seem to have upset you.

You have nothing to counter the arguments I make at the top of my post then tell me my viewpoint is wrong? There is gaslighting right there.

If it's a really shit thing to do, and I'm wrong, then please enlighten me. That's why we have debates, you know.

Do you have children?

Oh, and I didn't say transgender should not be allowed, let people dress and act as they like (normal caveats apply).