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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Supporting men who break stereotypes.

329 replies

lurker33 · 20/06/2018 14:39

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 21:21

In the context of trans women dressing in women’s clothes, I don’t think the same can be said that it is universally agreeable that is offensive to all women.

No one said this though

I don't understand why people keep saying it

daimbars · 22/06/2018 21:25

I suppose if the OP is a natural blonde she gets offended when other people bleach their hair.

Ereshkigal · 22/06/2018 21:32

Yes Daim, I'm sure she does.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:45

Hair bleaching now Shock

S'pose Daim had to make me laugh at some point.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 21:48

And are you laughing spontaneous?

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 21:50

Sniggering at the stupidity Rufus.

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 21:57

I don’t understand why you aren’t being so mean to some posters.

The OP posted something and some people don’t agree with some of the things she has said. There’s no need to snigger at people?

Eresh I think the OP has placed a strong emphasis on men dressing as women. I think I’ve identified the problem with the OP that I’ve failed to articulate - to me it’s implying that all that identifying as trans means is that men like dressing up like women. I don’t think that’s a fair or compassionate statement. There is also a conflation of all trans = TRA because of the assumption that any trans woman wants or demands to be identified as a biological woman. I’m sorry if that’s incorrect but there was no indication that I am incorrect based on the OP. This is why I and a couple of other posters were uncomfortable with the OP.

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 21:58

Sorry I meant that should be a reply to Rufus not Eresh

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 22:01

SilverDoe I'm known as a poster who doesn't candy coat my words. I never have and I don't intend to start now. If someone posts something, I am well within my rights to comment, as are you. Daim is well known on this board for their views and for derailing. They also spout a load of shite. I will call it out when I see it. Is that ok with you? Good!

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:03

Thank you silver I didnt get that at all from the OP so we will have to agree to disagree on that one Smile

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 22:12

Rufus perhaps I have read further into the OP then I should have! I do understand the essential argument and I do agree. I got an odd vibe from the OP and maybe I am being unfair. I have tried to be measured though and I hope I haven’t been goady or anything in the process, I’m quite new to these boards :)

spontaneous good for you, never said you weren’t free to comment (naturally), just “called out” something I myself thought was a bit unnecessary. Clearly you have a bigger context with this poster than I am aware of though.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:13

No no its probably me silver Grin

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 22:14

SilverDoe That's why (with all due respect) it's better to get to know the flow of the board and the posters before jumping in to slap wrists. It makes you look silly!

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:18

Oh gosh just seen your 'goady' comment

You haven't been goady at all Smile i think we are on the same book if not page Grin

Some posters arent even in the same fucking library!!

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 22:19

Who Rufus?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:21

What?

Who's not in the same library?

I dont want to say...they might just appear if i say their name

I can give you a clue

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 22:22

Lol. Ok Rufus give me a clue.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:23

Its the same name as a really shitty confectionery 'treat'

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:23

Ive only really seen it sold in ikea lately

There's probably a good reason for that

spontaneousgiventime · 22/06/2018 22:24

HAHAHA! Gotcha! They're goady just about every post they make.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 22/06/2018 22:25

Yep!!

thebewilderness · 22/06/2018 22:34

I think comparing cross dressing to black face is indeed highly offensive to trans people because it is ignoring the intention and motivation behind the behaviour.

The sole motivation behind black face is offence and ridicule, a parody of a race of people intended as a joke. Disgusting behaviour.

Women have no way of knowing which people are Schroedinger's transgender and who is not.
Women have objected to men wearing womanface in comedy routines and as a fetish since my grandma was a suffragist.

An example of blackface without intent to offend or mock but only copy may be the Morris Dancers wearing black and blacking their faces like the Moors who brought the dance to England.
It is still offensive regardless of intent. Just as womanface is offensive to women.
It is white men punching down, not up.

daimbars · 22/06/2018 22:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SilverDoe · 22/06/2018 22:45

Rufus yes I think we are in the same book, even on the same chapter ;)

bewilderness apologies, black face is not an accurate anaology - because people who use blackface are not doing so for their own wellbeing or for anything to do with who they identify as - it’s an imitation or mockery. I don’t think that’s fair to say of someone who identifies as trans though. Which was my original point and the reason I was uncomfortable with the OP.

And while you’re absolutely right that women can’t and shouldn’t have to be the judge of who is trans and who is a TRA, it doesn’t negate the fact that there are trans people out their just living their lives, right? So sweeping statements as in the OP about dissenting from anything that acknowledges trans people in law seems a bit unnecessary an discriminatory.

Having trans women in women’s spaces is a separate thing - I’ve got that right haven’t I? The law that the OP mentions she rejects is not the same one that potentially lets natal men into women’s spaces?

AngryAttackKittens · 22/06/2018 22:46

Say the name and they appear!

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