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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Supporting men who break stereotypes.

329 replies

lurker33 · 20/06/2018 14:39

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

OP posts:
BesmirchingMotherhood · 21/06/2018 17:00

FYI this would cause chaos and devastation to thousands of people who just want to peacefully go about their lives.

I’m assuming you mean people who are trans here, but right back atcha re old-fashioned cunty wimms.

daimbars · 21/06/2018 17:08

Sorry to go off on one OP I know you probably didn't mean any harm!

I don't think people really think about what they are saying in here sometimes - repealing the GRA isn't up for debate as it would cause all sorts of chaos.

Yep I have kids :)

NatLuc · 21/06/2018 17:14

Hello lurker33,

Going back to your original post, I think that the thing that is often overlooked is the many trans people know that they cannot change their biological sex. The GRA exists as a way of giving trans people a sense of security and belonging. Whilst it is not perfect as a law (you will hear people referring to it as legal fiction), it does serve a meaningful purpose.

Trans people do everything in their power with the means that at available to them to alleviate their dysphoria through surgery, hormones and presenting as the opposite sex to that which they were born. We do this not to make a parody out of womanhood or manhood but to 'play the game'. I totally agree with you that gender stereotypes can be damaging. But saying that it is comparable to blackface is offensive.

I do not think that many consider just how deeply rooted trans issues go within trans individuals.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 17:35

Interesting thread lurker

I certainly don't support self ID

Not very knowledgable at all about the GRA but would be interested in hearing both sides of that debate

AsAProfessionalFekko · 21/06/2018 17:38

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup did you miss the new romantics?

daimbars · 21/06/2018 17:40

Are you married OP?

If so, it would be a bit like me coming on here and saying 'I think OPs marriage certificate should be taken off her. I've never met her and she's never done me any harm but I don't think she should have that marriage certificate. I'm fine with her having a relationship though so I'm sure she won't mind'

placemats · 21/06/2018 17:42

When men start supporting women who break stereotypes, I might just consider it.

Nice try.

BesmirchingMotherhood · 21/06/2018 17:43

If so, it would be a bit like me coming on here and saying 'I think OPs marriage certificate should be taken off her. I've never met her and she's never done me any harm but I don't think she should have that marriage certificate. I'm fine with her having a relationship though so I'm sure she won't mind'

It is nothing like that.

ChickenMe · 21/06/2018 17:45

repealing the GRA isn't up for debate

Who says?

And now you are saying that mumsnet shouldn't host the debate? Just because you don't like it. Desperate.

lurker33 · 21/06/2018 18:07

Ok, there is no need to be so patronising daimbars.

It's nothing like your marriage certificate example. The GRC is a provable untruth.

NatLuc, it is comparable to blackface IMO because it's invalidating me as a woman. I am not a stereotype. I am a woman because my biology says so, not because I conform to said stereotypes.

Transpeople should be allowed to go about their lives like anyone else, as long as that does not adversely affect others.

OP posts:
placemats · 21/06/2018 18:13

I'm about to have some home made spaghetti carbonara. I mixed it up but it looks like carbonara to me.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:16

placemats

Takeout here

To celebrate the end of exams Grin

daimbars · 21/06/2018 18:16

Transpeople should be allowed to go about their lives like anyone else, as long as that does not adversely affect others

Ah okay great we are on the same page. This is what trans people do every day. Unless they commit a crime of course and then that crime is dealt with. The same as if any other person commits a crime, the crime is dealt.

Being trans in itself does not adversely affect anyone.

daimbars · 21/06/2018 18:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:29

Well aren't you the charmer daim Grin

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:29

lurker

Wine
BesmirchingMotherhood · 21/06/2018 18:43

It doesn’t affect anyone except those girls who come second in races because a boy with a ‘feeling’ won or the women who didn’t go swimming because she didn’t feel safe with a swinging duck in the changing room or the woman denied a place on a women in leadership programme or or or

BesmirchingMotherhood · 21/06/2018 18:44

Duck 🦆🦆🦆🦆

Ffs

Ereshkigal · 21/06/2018 18:45

I wouldn't want a swinging duck in the changing room either! Grin

SomeDyke · 21/06/2018 18:55

To celebrate the end of exams
Yeah, some of us still doing the bloody marking..............

I wouldn't want a swinging duck in the changing room either!
Duck, teeny little gosling, to a whole swan's neck, don't want any of them swinging in my changing room.............
Is it just waterfowl, or do we want waders out as well? And does a wader like a curlew count when it's on the moors in summer and not really doing any wading? Or is that just a dangerous extended phenotype.........................Too much coffee and too much ornithology, I blame Chris Packham...........

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:55

I agree with eresh

imagine the shit!!!

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/06/2018 18:57

somedyke

Hopefully you are not marking dds

If you are, can i just point out when she said she went to Thorpe park and watched a MAGIC MIKE show...she just meant an actual magic show, not a strip show

placemats · 21/06/2018 19:05

I did that last year Rufus

Good luck Flowers

placemats · 21/06/2018 19:07

Go on Daimbars report.

I have some daimbar's icecream in the freezer. Debating whether or not to eat them.

Should I?

DietCoke87 · 21/06/2018 19:16

When men start supporting women who break stereotypes, I might just consider it.

^This a hundred times over. I'm not going to applaud when many of the men who are breaking sex-based stereotypes are more offence and violent towards women who "don't play nice" than even the most extreme right-wing unapologetic MRA (their methods are of course different, but just as harmful). I'm thankful for the work GNC men are doing and I would never stigmatise them, but until other "macho" men start applauding them, I think it unreasonable to expect women to start clapping and handing out trophies.