Supporting men who break stereotypes.

[lurker33]

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

Daimbars, you've hit the nail on the head. I don't believe in transgender. So you agree that it's a belief system then?

But you know it is perfectly fine if you and NatLuc do believe in it, a bit like any religion tbh.

I do however object to being coerced/forced into believing, which is why I have a problem with the GRC and all the other things I have listed above.

IMO the only thing that unites women around the world is biology. I challenge you to define 'woman' in a way that fits your ideology.

Sorry I think that maybe given the way the discussion has moved on and that my comment is a little out of context, but it is solely addressing the OP.

I think comparing cross dressing to black face is indeed highly offensive to trans people because it is ignoring the intention and motivation behind the behaviour.

The sole motivation behind black face is offence and ridicule, a parody of a race of people intended as a joke. Disgusting behaviour.

While I understand the argument, I’m not sure I can agree that “simply throwing on a dress” is offensive to women. Because 1, I don’t think that transwomen throw on a dress and believe they are women, it’s surely a deeper issues than that. And 2, even if it does come down to dresses and makeup and “appearing female” - I agree that gender stereotypes are a negative for both sexes, but rightly or wrongly, they do exist and we do have generalised perceptions of both masculine and feminine aesthetic, and it would be disingenuous to refute that. If trans women are offensive because a dress and makeup doesn’t represent womanhood accurately, then surely it is still societal expectation to blame and not the individual? And obviously being a natal man, you are going to need to make more physical effort to be seen as a (trans)woman, and so it’s understandable why one would want to accentuate whatever your perception of feminine markers are.

I’m sorry if this is offensive or if I have got the trans perspective wrong. And again, I need to stress that I agree with the fact that there are issues for women stemming from TRAs and that these should be taken seriously.

But in my eyes this post comes very close to making a mockery of people who identify as trans. I don’t think that should be supported.

Sorry, first post should say a way of identity for some people* not some women.

*lurker33 I am not a mythical fairy. Whether you believe in me or not I AM transgender. I am not indoctrinated by anyone's belief system.

Dysphoria is not a 'lifestyle' choice that I adopted the way someone would adopt christianity or islam. It is something I have felt my entire conscious life since I was around four years old. It is real. It is painful. Transitioning is the only proven way of improving the lives of trans people.

Anyone trying to sell anything else is peddling PC renamed conversion therapy.

Hi SilverDoe,
If you read my comment at 11:27 you'll see why I think a man saying he is a woman is offensive. I do not think 'a man throwing on a dress' is offensive in the slightest. In fact, if you read my original post you'll see that I think such a man should be applauded.

I'm interested to know what 'being a woman' means to you?

I wrote a post but it was deleted due to my phone losing internet..

In response to your comment about trans identity being like religion - I really don’t think this is appropriate and I think that’s transphobic. Surely the trans debate on feminism should be centred around the impact of TRA on women and not questioning the validity of people’s identity?

Your post is offensive. Linking to the title - you are basically trying to brush off the very real phenomena of being trans and shoehorn them into being labelled as men. “Applauding men who wear dresses”

I know they are natal men. But it is hurtful for them to be labelled as such among society. I share the concerns of trans people sharing women specific rights and spaces but I do not think it is in any way okay to dismiss their identity because you don’t “believe” in it. There are far bigger questions around gender, identity and sexuality than what I or you perceive as womanhood, and if someone is literally telling you that a large part of their identity is painfully at odds with who they are biologically, it is not up to you to refute that. Your idea that it’s okay to do away with trans rights, a protected legal characteristic, and instead “applaud” men for wearing dresses and the like is patronising AF

NatLuc, thank you for engaging. I am sorry for what you have been through, and I don't doubt that you have been through alot.

Please understand that I never said transpeople did not exist, only that I do not believe in the trans ideology (A man can become a woman and vice versa).

What I fail to understand is how someone who was born male could possibly understand what 'being a woman' actually means. I haven't got the first clue what 'feeling like a woman' means, and where that ends and the 'me' bit starts. All I know is that I was born with 'woman' biology.

What is your frame of reference?

So trans people believe that putting a dress on makes them biologically female?

Wasn’t aware of that..

• Daimbars, you've hit the nail on the head. I don't believe in transgender. So you agree that it's a belief system then?

But you know it is perfectly fine if you and NatLuc do believe in it, a bit like any religion tbh.*

Lurker33 I don't believe in God but I wouldn't expect all the people that do to renounce their religion.

I think when you say you don't believe you mean you can't empathise. I can't understand being transgender either but I appreciate different human beings have different experiences.

SilverDoe, the thing is, the trans ideology does affect women and girls, please see my earlier post.

Rather than call me transphobic, which I refute, give me some reasoned arguments why you disagree. You do realise insulting people isn't a crime, right?

The fact is that transwomen who insist they are women are dismissing my identity, and insulting me as I have explained above. Why is that ok?

You said 'if someone is literally telling you that a large part of their identity is painfully at odds with who they are biologically'. I am not refuting that in the slightest. I am refuting the fact that a man can know what a 'being a woman' means.

The problem is that I believe that the word 'woman' has a biological meaning. You appear to have a different definition of 'woman' as you are discounting the biological one. How do you define 'woman'?

Lurker33,

I did not type the first part of that last message very well. What I meant by it is that being transgender is real. I am not a man in a dress and makeup. I might be Male, but I am not a man. I also appreciate that I am not biologically female.

I once said to my ex partner that I wished I was 'just' a cross dresser. My life would have been so much simpler. We would still be together if I was 'just' a cross dresser.

I do not think that there is any one way to 'feel like a woman'. However as I have said - it is dysphoria that is the issue. It is not something that can be taught to a person and is very much different to dysmorphia.

So trans people believe that putting a dress on makes them biologically female

No, I appreciate it may have sounded like that, sorry. It was for brevity whilst typing on a phone. And it was 'woman'.

Daimbars, I can empathize, but I don't believe that a transwoman is a woman.

lurker33 I do not think it is a case of having 'a different definition'. It is a case of using a different definition where appropriate in a given context.

But why are the two conflicting? In your opinion they are. I am not dissenting from the feminist POV in terms of TRAs. And I never said it was a crime to insult someone

You refute that anything you say is transphobic, again I disagree because our attitude comes across as dismissive of what it means to be trans. I am also not dissenting from the idea that trans people are not women, so no, I do not need to explain or debate what woman means, we both know and agree that we are women and trans women are not.

I do feel there is a line between being rightfully concerned about TRA ideology and thinking that the very existence of transwomen is offensive to women. I think you are crossing this line with this post, by comparing being trans with black face/religion.

Arguments about this stuff is very nuanced, and I believe that while I don’t necessarily disagree with what you are a saying about women, I believe that your motivations and attitudes are different from mine, and I do think you lack empathy.

silver

So you are ok with what lurking is saying but not how she is saying it

@NatLuc FWIW I do think attitudes like the OP's are pretty rare, even for Mumsnet!
It's good to know you haven't come across this in RL. I think the 'political climate' is pretty skewed on here so it's very sad to think the opinions of people like the OP are affecting you.

• I do feel there is a line between being rightfully concerned about TRA ideology and thinking that the very existence of transwomen is offensive to women. I think you are crossing this line with this post, by comparing being trans with black face/religion.

Arguments about this stuff is very nuanced, and I believe that while I don’t necessarily disagree with what you are a saying about women, I believe that your motivations and attitudes are different from mine, and I do think you lack empathy.*

YY to this. I agree the arguments are very nuanced, but in a way it highlights the fine line between intelligent GC debate and blatant transphobia.

Honestly, I am really trying to empathize.

NatLuc, I understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, the problem with it is that one meaning includes me and excludes you, and the other includes you and apparently excludes me.

How do we reconcile that?

I never said that the existence of transwomen is offensive to women, and I apologise if my comments came across that way.

I said that a transwoman who insists that they are a woman is offensive, for the reasons I outlined to NatLuc above.

lurker33 And that is fine! I (and many transwomen) have no problem with you excluding us when talking about biology.

This is why context matters.

@daimbars - Thank you, it means a lot to know. I do agree that it only seems to be MN and places like Twitter that I have encountered people that seem to have this opinion.

Most people are too busy going about their lives to care where I pee or notice me coming out of a cubicle from changing..

Going back to the original point about supporting men who break societal norms.

Women can wear trousers and go bare faced if they choose, no-one bats an eyelid. So why do we care if a man wears a skirt and a load of make-up? Personally I couldn't care less. I do think if we all just shrugged and thought no more about it then we we would have no issues like we are facing now.

Women who wear trousers go into women's loos so a man in a skirt in the mens loos would mean nothing. The same applies in changing rooms and everywhere else. By society loosening up on gender stereotypes we might cut down on men in women's spaces and vice versa and we can they return to sex segregation.

Pipe dream I know as some people will still insist on invading the spaces of the opposite sex to the one they were born.

NatLuc, you say gender critical views "only seems to be MN and on Twitter". Mumsnet is the biggest parenting forum in the UK, with 12 million visitors a month. Not exactly niche.

Plus if you look at reader comments about transgender issues on sites like this Daily Mail, you'll see that the general public is not at all in sympathy with the extremist ideology.

I totally get where Lurker33 is coming from when she speaks of"womanface". Women are oppressed all over the world because of our sex. Gender is a tool to enforce our disadvantage.

When a member of the oppressor class adopts the stereotypical clothing or behaviours of the subjugated one this is perceived as appropriation. It illustrates that individual's lack of appreciation of the power dynamics.

Thus Eddie Izzard, who i loved as an out and proud man in a dress is now just another dick in womanface.

Hi Rufus

Well, yes! In a sense! Thats exactly it.

I don’t think it’s wrong as a woman t worry about the implication of men attempting to encroach on their gender when our gender is inately weaker, objectified and oppressed.

I do however have a problem with being offensive and reductive about other persecuted group, if they are not the active perpetrators of this oppression, if their motivation behind their actions is not to women. There are trans women like Miranda Yardley who are trans and do not support the oppression of women. Therefore, while I also agree with enforcing negative gender stereotypes being damaging for both sexes, I don’t think that we will ever be rid of the notion, and if people, based on whatever is going on with them and the world around them, genuinelely feel trans and feel disphoric about their gender, I don’t think it’s right or fair to ridicule or belittle that.

I think the trans rights to be identified legally as female is a completely separate and much more debatable subject. This OP and subsequent posts seem ignorant and unempathetic to what it could mean to be trans, and I didn’t think that was fair. That was all I was saying.