Supporting men who break stereotypes.

[lurker33]

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

I do understand your original point though OP and I basically agree.

I've been friends with men like that my whole life. It's almost never women who're shitty to them, it's always men.

I mostly agree with your OP, 'legal fiction' is a ridiculous phrase but seems to fit the bill here quite well. A 'legal right to change gender' likewise makes no sense. There is no gender to change as imo, there is no such thing as gender as it's a social construct.

I don't want men & women's spaces, (although I do want to call myself a woman, as I am one). I want female & male spaces. Additional spaces/races etc for transgender people seems fair to me.

None of this means I'm nasty to trans people. As I always have, I'd treat them the same as any other man or woman, but am avidly against carte blanche for any male to declare himself a woman & have access to female spaces. I think an open debate is really needed though as there doesn't seem any obvious compromise or common ground to progress this issue & both sides are very defensive.

I also don't understand how it is not a mental illness. Here's a perfectly good functioning body. If I choose to mutilate it & give it drugs for the rest of my life unnecessarily due to a perceived problem & the body is not malfunctioning, then what is it if not an illness?

I totally agree with you that gender stereotypes can be damaging. But saying that it is comparable to blackface is offensive.

Objecting to the offensive behavior is offensive?
Womanface has been just as much a mockery of women by men as blackface has.
There is no point to you trying to rewrite history because you find women talking about what men have done to them "offensive".

It is far too late to try to convince women that prioritizing the protected characteristic of gender reassignment over the protected characteristic of sex is not discrimination against women and will not drive women out of the public sphere. It is already having that effect and is not fully implemented yet.

Daimbars, you said 'Being trans in itself does not adversely affect anyone.'

Yes, I agree. It's when transpeople insist:

1. they are the opposite sex and demand access to that sex's spaces.
2. they are the opposite sex and they should be able to compete in sports as that sex even though it clearly gives them an unfair advantage.
3. They insist that their feelings are more important than those of the opposite sex.
4. They start telling the opposite sex that they can't discuss those things unique to that sex because we're excluding them (well, duh..)
5. They insist that they 'perform' the opposite sex better that those who have been that sex since their birth.

Obviously, Not All Trans People Are Like That....
NAMALT either although I expect you still wouldn't want my husband getting naked in a changing room with you either, even if I did vouch for him.

Thank you for the Rufus.

and now think that being transgender should 'not be allowed' and a law should be passed to strip trans people of their legal right to change gender.

I don't think anyone thinks this. The concerns are about women's rights and safety. Which is largely ignored by trans activists.

lurker

No problemo

You hadnt said anything wrong, your post wasnt deleted

@lurker33 there are exceptions in the Equality Act - see attached picture. These exceptions mean a trans person is unable to insist on the things you are claiming they are insisting on. The law is already in place to protect women and the government has given assurance the EA is not up for review.

If you really think hard about it are there trans people really insisting they barge in the ladies changing room with you? Or have you just read about it on Mumsnet?

These exceptions mean a trans person is unable to insist on the things you are claiming they are insisting on.

What bullshit. They do insist, and people fall over themselves to pander to them.

Daimbars, OK, hands up, I haven't come across a transwoman who has done that no.

But we can all see those who take part in women's sports, the weightlifter for one, I believe there is a rugby player, and others...

I saw the bonkers guidelines that Swim England put together about re-educating people who objected to those of the opposite sex in their changing rooms. I understand that are re-evaluating them now.

I've seen tweets by the transwoman Munroe Bergdorf trying to stop women discussing things because it excludes them. Munroe also took it on themselves to represent women at an event about women.

Then there is Lily Madigan who is a women's officer even though they are a transwoman. Lily seems to be more intent on furthering trans rights and not woman's rights. It's a woman's officer role fgs.

I've also seen stories of boys identifying as girls and insisting on changing with the girls in school. This is at a time when children are going through puberty and are confused and shy about their bodies anyway. I'm sorry but teenage boys should not be sharing changing rooms with teenage girls, however they identify.

Again, Not All Trans People Are Like That. Some are, and unfortunately for those that aren't, this ones that are are the most vociferous.

What bullshit. They do insist, and people fall over themselves to pander to them

This.

The law is already in place to protect women and the government has given assurance the EA is not up for review.

That is why the lobbying organizations and transgender advocates are supplying businesses and councils with fraudulent lists of the protected characteristics. Individual women have had to point out to councils that they have removed sex as a protected characteristic in violation of the law.

In my memory, it was always women who supported gay men. And there was a fear of straight men because even in the early 90s it was still common to hear proper homophobic language; disparaging comments about gay male pop stars and nasty comments in real life too. I'm sure it's not gone away but I hear it ALOT less now. But the comments were ALWAYS from men whereas women were assumed to be a friend to gay men. My mum tells me about gay male friends she had in the 60s "you were safe with them"
Yes I realise that not all gay males are GNC or feminine but those I was friends with were fairly "obvious". I had several male friends who were gay and they seemed to prefer hanging around with the girls. We used to joke "you're a woman" and they were allowed to be honorary females.

Hey again lurker33,

Sorry for the slow reply, I was at the climbing wall last night. :)

Respectfully I have to disagree with you. I can't see how a transwoman wearing makeup and dressing in a more feminine manner invalidates you as a woman. Do you police women's rights to present how they wish to as well? Despite the overwhelming majority conforming to stereotypes?

Women do not have a monopoly on wanting to feel and look pretty by using makeup and clothing. Perhaps I am missing the point of your message but that is what it seems to me you are saying. By this logic.. even if we got rid of stereotypes (in the GC perfect world..) you would still think that 'feminine men' are insulting your womanhood because you think they are parodying beauty stereotypes. This is simply not the case. You might think that don't suit a 'look' they have chosen.. which is just judgey but also your problem because they might feel great about themselves.

OP says - let's support men who want to wear makeup and look pretty.

Not sure how that turns into "you're threatened by men wearing makeup and looking pretty".

(If I had my way there would be far more of that type of man and about 99% less beards.)

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women

I dont think its the wearing dresses bit thats the issue for the OP

It takes real effort to miss the point by that wide a margin!

There are two factors at play here though. Whether or not this hypothetical transwoman wishes to be recognised as a woman is irrelevant when the OP is referring to being a parody in appearance.

The point I was trying to make is that I doubt whether or not the trans person regards themselves as a woman/transwoman or offensively a 'feminine man' that this would make a difference to the OPs opinion of them.

As if OP would walk up to the transwoman and asks 'do you regard yourself as a woman or a feminine man?' and then depending on the answer would determine OPs opinion on whether they are a parody or not.

I don't think I have missed the point at all.

There is nothing offensive or otherwise bad about being a feminine man. That's the point that seems to have sailed over your head.

@NatLuc the OP is basically saying she doesn't believe in being transgender so trans people shouldn't be legally recognised as their acquired gender. They should just be satisfied to wear the women's clothes if they want.

A bit like all the people who opposed same sex marriage saying it threatened the institution of marriage, and gay people should be satisfied they were able to have a relationship.

@daimbars

YY.

'Well we let you change your name and title, you should be grateful! Though we'd prefer you kept Mr as your title, but whatever.'

I recently told some of my female friends that I stopped using the changing rooms altogether at the sports centre I go climbing at. When they asked why and I told them that due to the political climate around trans acceptance right now, I did not feel comfortable in case someone kicked up a fuss. They were horrified.

To clarify, horrified that I let the opinions of a few people on these forums affect me. Not at the idea of me using the ladies changing rooms.

Hi NatLuc, I wasn't saying that all all. I'm not threatened by feminine men at all.

What I'm saying is that I reject being labelled as I don't want to be constrained by those labels. However I am a woman, and the only reason that is because of biology, it's a label that is inescapable for me. If a man puts on a dress and makeup then that fine by me. It's when he then says he is a woman because of it that is insulting as it implies women are people that wear dresses and make up. I do neither ergo I am not a woman. Hence the insult.

I am a bit confused by the original post.

I agree that there would be issues with anybody being able to say that they are a woman and therefore have access to women’s segregated spaces, which are long standing spaces used to protect the safety of women in situations where they may be vulnerable or where it is otherwise not appropriate to have males in that space.

However a post like this is ridiculing the idea of a man dressing as a woman. Transexualism is clearly a real way of identity for some women and I do not think it is appropriate to belittle that. There are some transwomen who believe that only when transwomen are treated exactly as biological women in the eyes of the law, and I understand why women have a problem with that (I agree with that).

But in the defence and discussion of that debate, it is not necessary to make light of trans people’s lives.