Supporting men who break stereotypes.

[lurker33]

I've said this on another thread, but I'd like to explore it a bit further...

In my opinion the only thing that differentiates boys from girls are their primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do, barring those things that are required to procreate.

The only thing holding people back are societal expectations. We need to be challenging these, not reinforcing them with this gender identity nonsense.

A man wearing a dress and wearing makeup however should be applauded for being courageous and breaking stereotypes.

If a man dresses and acts 'like a woman' and calls himself 'a woman' then he is a parody of a woman (in the ironic sense) because the only way he can do this is to perform deeply flawed stereotypes.

Men in dresses and make up insisting on being recognised as women is therefore exactly the same as blackface and is deeply insulting to women.

Why is it ok to insult women with the lie that men are woman, but not ok to tell the truth and say men can never become women?

As a result I cannot support the GRC or self ID. These are red herrings and should be repealed and rejected.

Sorry OP, I just read my last post that I’m writing while making dinnner for my little ones so was a bit rushed, and it came across far more critical of you than it intended to be. It’s only your first few posts that mine apply to and you do seem to be reasonably open to others views, so again sorry if my latest post seems unnecessarily harsh toward you, it’s not my intention!

Prawnofthepatriarchy Sorry I don't put any stock in the comments section of articles on the Daily Fail.

And no, I have come across GC people in RL. What I have not come across is people who have GC views such as ladyface in RL.

Again, as per a previous message in this thread, women do not have a monopoly on looking pretty. I am not parodying anything when I do my makeup every day (or choose not to). And the fact that I will colloquially call myself a woman is not offensive to natal women. Asserting I can change my biological sex however, I would agree is out of order.

Being transgender is not an ideology. Certain aspects of TRA rhetoric are. I believe it is important not to conflate the two.

NatLuc you seem to be wilfully missing the point. Wear what you want - skirts, make-up, high heels whatever - no one cares and many on these boards would totally support you doing that as a man. What we object to is the suggestion that this somehow makes you a woman. Doing this implies that being a woman is about doing these things, which does at that point feel like putting on woman face. It's insulting to women.

I thought you understood that this is what the OP meant and I don't know why you keep suggesting that anyone is saying you should wear what you want and present how you want. Fill your boots, we'll have your back against dickheads that make fun. But just don't tell us it makes you a woman. In fairness, I don't think you are saying that so I don't know why you keep saying anyone's telling you what you can look like.

SilverDoe just wanted to say I agree with your posts and I felt really uncomfortable with this thread too.

Thanks PeakPants

I think it’s important to be respectful and empathetic, otherwise any conversation is kind of nil

me too. I also think this sort of discussion about whether being trans is a 'real thing' is pointless. Where is it getting anyone by denying it? There are millions of trans people across the globe so I am pretty sure it is a thing and if they say they feel a particular way, it's not for me to deny it exists. It's perfectly possible to have the debate about women's dignity and safety without likening trans people to blackface.

Exactly!

Without being rude, I think it’s almost arrogant to just dismiss somebody’s identity as non existent. If this attitude is perpetuated around, then I would understand why people could label us transphobic.

Luckily I’m sure this way of thinking is in the minority here, and hopefully everywhere else!

Miranda Yardley doesn't identify as Transgender

Thank you silver

I quite often agree with posts on here (or parts of them anyway) but wince at how they are said

Although i dont think anyone has dismissed anyone's identity...i think lurker clarified her meaning

But i could be wrong obviously

lurker33

I think your post nails the profound contradictions at play. I like the term Womanface - a great description of the gaslighting around entitled men riding roughshod into women's spaces, demanding not only to be treated as though they are women - when they are not, but also wanting laws set aside, accepted by the majority of the public, underpinning safeguarding and women's legally protected rights as the discriminated sex. As Sheila Jeffries says, a mantrum.

@RogerAllamsFangirl I don't know if @NatLuc has a GRC or not but if she does she is legally a woman. If she's in the process of getting one she's required by the gender recognition panel to identify as a woman and use a female pronoun.

Daim, that's what I don't get. I would be so bowled-overly (new word) impressed by any man who pushed the boundaries of what it means to be a man. Why does it always have to be the boundaries of being a woman that are pushed - and thereby the meaning of woman reduced to "person wearing pretty clothes and make-up".

I agree with you Lurker, the whole premise of transgender ideology is that stereotypes define who you are, i.e. if you are a male and like dressing in skirts, having long hair, wearing make-up, like knitting etc, you must be really a girl/woman. If those stereotypes were not assigned to females, then males would perform them and there would be no need to for them to claim that liking those things makes them ‘trans’. It is an ideology whose very foundations is built on sexist stereotypes.

I think it is interesting that we don’t have swaths of people claiming that they liked eating curries, wearing sari’s, watching Bollywood movies, and liking Bengal music from a young age, which means that they are transasian. The reason is that they would never get away with it, the racism of such an ideology would be pointed out straight away. It is however acceptable to have ideologies built entirely on sexism, and that is why they are accepted, even promoted.

It's not always men pushing to be women. Plenty of biologically born females identify as men.

A few posters identify as goady fuckers.

Plenty of biologically born females identify as men.

Why do you think that is daimbars?

Who says they are men? 'Plenty'? Quantify 'plenty' please.

The trans men I know say similar things to Nat, that they always felt the gender they identify with doesn't match their biological sex.

think when you say you don't believe you mean you can't empathise. I can't understand being transgender either but I appreciate different human beings have different experiences.

I think it's a bit rich to claim it's about lack of empathy, when transactivists show so little interest in empathising with women. People believe in lots of objectively unlikely things, including me. For me innate "gender" falls into that. Speaking for myself I don't believe in trans ideology but if my rights weren't threatened I wouldn't care how many people did. But they are, and I do.

And the fact that I will colloquially call myself a woman is not offensive to natal women.

I don't think you can say that. It's not for you to decide what women find offensive.

I'm a woman and find the content of the OP much more offensive than NatLuc colloquially calling herself a woman.

What this thread highlights is having female biology does not make a person have compassion or empathy.

What this thread highlights is having female biology does not make a person have compassion or empathy.

Well no...

In the same way that male biology doesnt do that either

I agree it’s not fair to tell somebody what they can or can’t be offended by.

However I also think that in the same vein, there is a lot of definitive language around what trans people think and feel and a lot of saying on behalf of trans people the reasoning behind what they do - the recurring comments about putting on a dress or imitating female stereotypes and that makes them think they are women. Is that definitely what’s trans people think? Is it as superficial as wearing clothes and putting on makeup or does it run deeper?

Also thirdly, addressing it the point about not telling people what they can or can’t find offensive again, equally someone finding something offensive doesn’t automatically make something wrong. In the context of black face, it’s offensive and universally wrong. In the context of trans women dressing in women’s clothes, I don’t think the same can be said that it is universally agreeable that is offensive to all women.

What this thread highlights is having female biology does not make a person have compassion or empathy.

No one suggested it did. I don't think this thread is particularly lacking in compassion or empathy unless you interpret those words to mean, sign over your rights without a fight. Nor do I think you're particularly blessed with those attributes.