New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

[Maryz]

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

We arent after banning males from mumsnet.
Theres some great blokes on here.

Indeed. Happy for them to send in birth certificates too.

Or for us to treat every member as the sex they say they are which is clearly the preference. So no more of this "trans women are not women". Equality

@Baroquehavoc Context is everything, but if a biological male uses his biologically male body to murder or assault women or children, then I will no longer afford such persons the courtesies I would normally extend. No.

Liam Huntley, for example, is a child-murdering piece of scum who was, is and always will be a man.

I think we can say no to both of those actually, snappity

Yep. What an odd false dichotomy this person is trying to create.

Or for us to treat every member as the sex they say they are which is clearly the preference. So no more of this "trans women are not women".

Nope. Doesn't work for me.

Snappity I identify as a brain surgeon.

You have no reason to believe Im not a brain surgeon.

But Im guessing youd want to check that out before I opened your skull. Correct?

Because me saying Im a surgeon does not make me so, even if you believe it.

Doesn't work for me, either, Eresh.

Sorry snappity. Nice try.

We do treat people equally.

Males and females get treated equally, and if you were a member youd know that doesnt always happen and people get pulled up on it.

Equality doesnt mean pretending men are women.

Another day.....another science denier.

How does sending birth certificates prove you are that person, anyway. Didn't think that through did you grin I could send my dads in, doesn't make me a man in his fifties. Or one of the DCs maybe. Oo, the choices are endless...

Glad someone made that point. I needed to wait for someone else to do it.

So the only system which is not discriminatory is that on Mumsnet we accept all members to self-ID their sex and treat as breaches of guidance everyone who says that all trans women are not women.

Snappity. As I said I am Elizabeth I. You can call me Your Majesty. I hereby send you to the Tower for crimes against language and reality. Are you going to go?

TBH there are probably transwomen posting on Mumsnet quite happily being assumed to be women. (As in adult human female)

However although troll hunting is discouraged there is no obligation to believe that someone is who they say they are.

Also there is no obligation to believe that transwomen are women (AHF). There is no obligation to believe in the concept of gender identity. You are quite entitled to believe in those things and I am entitled not to.

I'm an atheist so the whole gendered soul thing is a bit of non-starter.

Equality doesnt mean pretending men are women.

There is an assumption that trans women are not sex = women without knowing their personal details. That's what needs to stop.

Heh guess I'm going to be reported as I posted while Snappity was getting to the point.

There is an assumption that trans women are not sex = women without knowing their personal details. That's what needs to stop.

They aren't female. They never will be. It's not my fault. It isn't going to stop.

Snappity transwomen are biological males. We are allowed to say that.

Snappity clearly has no understanding of what women means so lets stop letting them derail the thread.

We cant communicate meanings with people who dont speak the same language.

If the only interaction I have had with someone involves them referring to themselves as female and I have no reason whatsoever to believe that may not be the whole truth, I will assume they are whatever sex they say.

If they are a well known transperson/were historically well known as the opposite sex (including being known for criminal offences), or have ever referred to themselves in conversation as trans or as the opposite sex, or have referred to experiences that can only happen to a transperson or someone of the opposite sex, then I cannot magically forget that and view them as what they now say they are.

Simple. :)

No from me.

If someone can't even define woman then what sort of debate can actually be had?

Also there is no obligation to believe that transwomen are women

There is because otherwise you are assuming that some women aren't women without knowing their birth certificate or biology. That is discrimination. T

But transwomen are, by definition, not female. Women, by definition, are adult human females. It's the reason why the apparent ban on referring to natal sex is so illogical - trans identity/status is intrinsically a reference to biological sex. Women are never born with the ability to produce sperm. Men are never born with the ability to produce ova.

I reiterate posters who have said that we need the language to talk about the issues.

Fuck me! I’ve just googled what Ian Huntley is now doing and it’s knocked me sick!

Clearly he is hoping to be put in to a female prison where he can start abusing again.

Staggered.

Do you mean legally a woman, or biologically a woman, Snappity?

I don't believe in a manly brain or a lady brain, but there sure as hell is evidence of a befuddled brain.