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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

New guidelines - we aren't allowed to refer to natal sex

681 replies

Maryz · 14/06/2018 11:44

According to KateMumsnet:

"We also thought it might be useful to clarify our thinking about general terms for trans people. Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex."

Well that's that really, isn't it.

We are all being told to pretend that men have become women.

Am I going to be deleted/banned for this post?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BeyondSceptical · 15/06/2018 14:01

If women have to accept people who say they are transwomen as women, am I able to identify as a transwoman?

R0wantrees · 15/06/2018 14:02

AlfredDaButtler

Sarah Brown (LGBT+LibDem) has asserted her belief that she is female.

2013 Guardian Article on the origins of 'Press for Change' organisation & 2004 GRA.
(extract)
"Sarah Brown, an openly trans Lib Dem councillor in Cambridge, was a man when she married Sylvia in 2001. They stayed together through Brown's transition, which began in 2005. Brown wanted to be recognised as a woman in law and she and Sylvia convinced themselves that annulling their marriage and becoming civil partners would "just be a bureaucratic exercise that didn't mean anything". When they got their decree of nullity, however, "We realised we had been wrong. We left the court holding hands, in tears," says Brown. Far from being healing, the words of their civil partnership a few weeks later were "a kick in the teeth". Even their marriage certificate was confiscated. The proposed marriage equality legislation will not allow people such as Brown to have her original marriage recognised again.

This is a source of personal heartache, but Brown is convinced that trans people's biggest single problem is access to decent healthcare. Within 24 hours of her creating the hashtag #transdocfail, she had been inundated with 2,000 tweets of trans people's negative experiences at the hands of medical professionals. "It revealed a massive level of abuse. If it was happening to any other minority it would be on the national news," says Brown. Another ongoing battle for trans people is to revise the World Health Organisation's International Classification of Diseases (ICD) so that transsexuality is not listed as a mental illness. (Ironically, this was added to the ICD around the time homosexuality was removed; campaigners such as Burns say it is useful to be in the ICD to help trans people access healthcare but it should be "less stigmatising".)" continues
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 14:02

Snappity, for clarification, for a lot of us all "woman" means is adult human female which refences sex and age.

I know that for some the word "woman" references a gender concept, which I don't understand and thus can't believe in.

So in effect we are speaking two different languages. However apparently despite my "language" being a fairly well understood concept by most of the English speaking world - it's the one that's unfair and possibly in breach of website rules.

It is very odd.

leyat · 15/06/2018 14:07

Naice great post, i hope @MNHQ really reflect on it. When so many women on these boards are pointing out the same issues they should listen to us...

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 14:08

If women have to accept people who say they are transwomen as women, am I able to identify as a transwoman?

Yes of course. Go for it! It's all a big pick and mix after all.

Pratchet · 15/06/2018 14:09

How to avoid pronouns
Sarah Brown (LGBT+LibDem) has asserted her belief that she is female

Sarah Brown (LGBT+LibDem) has asserted the belief Of being female.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 14:10

We cant communicate meanings with people who dont speak the same language.

This. Agree it's pointless engaging with zealous genderbelievers.

Snappity · 15/06/2018 14:10

Humans can’t change sex.

The law says that people can. It is transphobic to deny that.

AlfredDaButtler · 15/06/2018 14:11

R0wantrees That excerpt is incredibly sad for Sarah and Sylvia, but a belief doesn't change fact. My understanding from previous threads where posters like Truscum and Jaycee have contributed have given me the impression that the gender recognition process was always explicit in ensuring those transitioning understood that while they would achieve the legal status of a woman, that they would not actually be changing their sex (due to biological impossibility).

LangCleg · 15/06/2018 14:11

What an odd false dichotomy this person is trying to create.

We are honestly in the realms of Monty Python now.

Some people on here might be pretending to be women and if you don't agree that everyone should send in birth certificates then you agree that the existence of internet impersonation means that a woman is now anyone who does an internet impersonation of one. Gotcha, suckers!

Ok then!

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 14:12

Didn't I send you to the Tower a while ago? It's phobic of my queenly identity that you haven't gone.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 14:12

To Snappity, obvs!

BeyondSceptical · 15/06/2018 14:12

Realityphobic. Factphobic. Gynaephobic

Snappity · 15/06/2018 14:12

If women have to accept people who say they are transwomen as women, am I able to identify as a transwoman?

Of course

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 14:13

Snappity - what are you trying to do? Set up a gender control system? Impose an ideology on people?

What is your mandate for this? Have you been voted in as a representative of mumsnet posters? Are you self elected?

Curious as to why we need you managing us here?

BeyondSceptical · 15/06/2018 14:13

Snappityphobic

dolorsit · 15/06/2018 14:13

*Also there is no obligation to believe that transwomen are women

There is because otherwise you are assuming that some women aren't women without knowing their birth certificate or biology. That is discrimination. T*

Ok now you are into the realm of thought crime. There is no legal obligation to believe anything. I wasn't aware that we live in a theocracy.

I know this is a derail but it's all good for the lurkers.

ToeToToe · 15/06/2018 14:13

"MNHQ I've got some questions:

  1. Why are male feelings about language are being prioritised above females?

  2. Why aren't females allowed to use their own language to describe themselves without it having to be vetted/approved of by males?

  3. Have MNHQ read about abusive types who are never satisfied?"

I would be very interested in the answers to these questions. Historically women's language, lives, healthcare, fertility has been dominated by men, to varying degrees. Why is this allowed to be continued in 2018? On Mumsnet?

R0wantrees · 15/06/2018 14:15

AlfredDaButtler
The whole article is worth reading as it features many of the people we hear from today asserting the need for rights for people who are transgender.
It is very moving. I felt a great deal of compassion.
The background is important and also the insight it gives into the current situation.

AllyMcBeagle · 15/06/2018 14:16

The law says that people can.

The law is an ass, as they say.

R0wantrees · 15/06/2018 14:18

to quote Jon Ronson from his TedTalk 'How one tweet can ruin your life'

"I favour people over ideologies"

talk is worth watching in understanding the power of twitter

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 14:18

The law says that people can. It is transphobic to deny that.

For lurkers: actually the law foolishly says that it is necessary to treat a biological male as female for most purposes (with some exclusions) if said biological male obtains a bit of paper saying that they are female. This is currently only given where they have a dysphoric psychological disorder as laid out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders edition 5.

Snappity · 15/06/2018 14:19

"R0wantrees That excerpt is incredibly sad for Sarah and Sylvia, but a belief doesn't change fact. My understanding from previous threads where posters like Truscum and Jaycee have contributed have given me the impression that the gender recognition process was always explicit in ensuring those transitioning understood that while they would achieve the legal status of a woman, that they would not actually be changing their sex (due to biological impossibility)."

S9 of the Gender Recognition Act is clear. Sex changes. The Equality Act is clear sex ≠ biological sex. You might not like the law but we should moderate on the basis of the law

Picassospaintbrush · 15/06/2018 14:19

Exactly this

My understanding from previous threads where posters like Truscum and Jaycee have contributed have given me the impression that the gender recognition process was always explicit in ensuring those transitioning understood that while they would achieve the legal status of a woman, that they would not actually be changing their sex (due to biological impossibility).

In fact they have only limited recognition for some purposes in law.

It certainly does not mean that at all times and in all circumstances everybody has to defer to this legal fiction.

Ereshkigal · 15/06/2018 14:20

Some very familiar arguments here.