No True Transwoman - transadvocates question whether TW is 'genuine' after said TW sexually harasses women in homeless shelter

[CaitlynsCat]

abc30.com/3514544/

'It says the shelter requires them to shower in groups, and it opened its doors to a person who identified themself as a transgender woman who made lewd and sexually inappropriate comments, and leered at them while they were naked.

"This is the biggest fear they bring up, that you're going to have people who may not even be transgender in bathrooms and settings where people are naked and their privacy rights are being violated," said Peter Kapetan, who filed the lawsuit on behalf of the women.

Poverello House administrators tell Action News federal law says they have to treat a person identifying as a woman as a woman -- and there's no way to test whether it's true.'

'
The women say they repeatedly complained to staff members, but were told if they didn't respect the person's decision to identify as a woman, and if they refused to take showers at the same time, they'd get kicked out of the shelter.
'

'Karen Adell Scot, a local transgender advocate, even offered to train Naomi's House employees on how to recognize people just pretending to identify as the opposite gender.'

How would the house deal with a biological woman that intimidated and harassed others in the shower? What are the standards of conduct for all people there?

The risk of this is lower and a lot of good practices aren't about perfection, they're about minimising risk. Secondly, rape victims especially are probably much less comfortable confronting a large, sexually predatory man than they are dealing with unwanted come ons from a woman. Finally, groups of women tend to have their own ways of managing an unwanted sexual suitor in the group who is female. A disturbed man sharing physical space is not part of the in-group but an out-group. There's logic to your point but the practical reality is that this scenario is more common than yours and sex segregation is an easy, practical and sensible way to reduce this.

I'm a straight guy. Put me in a shower full of women and chances are I'm going to want to have sex with them.

I would think that 'training' people to identify who is 'genuinely' transgender is an impossibility!

It's certainly not something you can do with sufficient reliability. Psychiatrists are well practised at identifying people with genuine psychiatric disorders. I'm sure they could weed out a few. BUT actual GD sufferers are only some of trans people. So is this person implicitly agreeing that AG is not "true" trans?

It wouldn't have a high success rate, anyway. An AG person could undoubtedly learn the "right" answers to give to pass an assessment in most cases. And really, what is going to be done if they fail? Sorry - you can't legally change your sex but this other person can?

Firstly my heart goes out to the women suffering sexual harassment.

It is not clear to me whether the staff are being negligent or they are hamstrung by the laws in the state. However, in England and Wales the laws are different and there are a lot of actions they could take.

Prima facie it sounds like the transwoman is committing the offence of voyeurism. They should call the police.

They could exclude her from the shelter. They would treat a non-transwomen in this way so it would not be discrimination to exclude her.

Or they could take action against her, which might be discriminatory, as long as it is proportionate as this is allowed under the Equality Act.

And if legal self id comes in with a reformed GRA nothing would change.

From time to time people misbehave in shelters and need to be dealt with robustly by the staff.

My point is, I was wondering if the shelter would act differently if the perpetrator was biologically female, would there be extra supervision? Would she be banned from the shelter all together?
They wouldn’t be telling the others to accept her as a women as that doesn’t make sense. They would have to do something to protect the others as otherwise they would be failing in their duty of care. If there was persistent in-shower bullying and sexual harassment by women would they really just say to the others “put up and shut up?” If yes, that’s dreadful and they are failing. If no, then why is it ok when the perpetrator is a man? When as you agree it’s much more intimidating and higher risk.

"Morgane had this to say."

Ogre is absolute filth. Comes up with some of the most vile shit.

I keep seeing Morgane Onger's involvement.

Challenging Andrew Gilligan's reporting of UK transgender prison statistics:
twitter.com/mragilligan/status/1001830695466041344
(discussed)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3263172-Andrew-Gilligan-Latest-bullying-transgender-complaint-swiftly-rejected-by-parliamentary-standards-committee

Vancouver Rape Relief & FGM
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1000066518170746880.html
(extracts)
"The president of the BCNDP which is the political party in power in the province right now, Morgane Oger, has proudly continued the campaign to end Vancouver Rape Relief's work to heal survivors of male violence, calling the org a "private hate club."

"Yesterday, Oger told a survivor of female genital mutilation that her insistence that the mutilation happened due to her sex, not gender, was an excuse to be transphobic since the survivor insisted biological sex is relevant to women's oppression."

See Jana Cornel's twitter:
twitter.com/RadfemJana

I think this was the first time I heard of Onger:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146926-I-am-this-woman

I keep seeing Morgane Onger's involvement.

YY. Didn't someone say Oger was claiming to be advising the UK government? Was that green ink letters to Theresa May, or genuinely acting in some kind of advisory capacity?

Your points have been dealt with before SarahAr.

Morgane Oger seems to be teflon coated atm, mired neck deep in all kinds of unsavory shit but it just seems to slide off. A truly vile individual, for whom prison would seem a likely outcome when it all catches up.

Your post is so disingenuous SarahAr. The proposed reforms would remove the current sex exemptions, so there would be no way to exclude a transwoman with a GRC who is sexually harassing other residents, other than through the shelter's only policies about acceptable conduct. And, because of the threat of litigation or removal of essential funding streams, many organisations are already wary about using the existing provisions within the Equality Act. But you already know that, as it's been pointed out to you many times on previous threads.

Firstly my heart goes out to the women suffering sexual harassment.

Funny how you are the only one on this thread who needs to qualify their point with this statement.

This Ogler?

This person quite clearly doesn't care less about women.

The comments about Michfest are particulary chilling

Ogler's agenda is clear: remove ALL sex segregated spaces for women

They could exclude her from the shelter. They would treat a non-transwomen in this way so it would not be discrimination to exclude her.

Or they could take action against her, which might be discriminatory, as long as it is proportionate as this is allowed under the Equality Act.

Exactly. In the UK if she was pre op and this was distressing for the other women they would have to make alternative arrangements.

It also says the charity has implemented shower curtains. It think that should be done everywhere, not all women want to be naked in front of others. Everyone has their own boundaries and there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone should have the option of privacy it isn't necessarily anything to do with sex/ gender.

Exactly. In the UK if she was pre op and this was distressing for the other women they would have to make alternative arrangements.

Transactivist translator: if having an intact man in the shower naked with them was distressing for women and they complained and the complaints were recorded and taken seriously the shelter might have to make alternative arrangements. Or they might tell them that they needed to be "educated", like Swim England.

Shower curtains!

Yes that's it sorted then.

I think that "training" people to identify who is 'genuinely' transgender is a huge mistake.

If the criterion is "I say so" - what possible training could even achieve that?

Oger was also the one who asked people online to identify the woman who had a sign at Canada's dyke march says trans women are men.
Oger begged Oger's followers to find the woman and her workplace.
Nasty nasty person.

Oger has not a scrap of empathy for women.

If the criterion is "I say so" - what possible training could even achieve that?

I would love to attend that training. I am fascinated by the idea and can't imagine what they would say.

Hey Sarah and Supermatch - maybe we could get something off the ground here?

Firstly my heart goes out to the women suffering sexual harassment.

Oh what disingenuous bollocks.

You don't care about women suffering sexual harassment. If you did, you would support laws robustly protecting them where possible and oppose proposed legislation that might weaken them instead of spending your days posting misleading crapola to pretend that women's protections aren't currently under attack.

You support men in women's spaces. If the consequences of that are unpalatable, at least bloody own it.

I would love to attend that training.

Believe me, so would I!

I'd happily be behind any trans person opening trans shelters.

Can anyone link me to a campaign that I can support?

You can @ me if you find one. Just one.

Did you see on another thread, Sarah admitted that there actually is a debate to be had about the whole concept of self identified men being able to legally access women's spaces? Let's have a debate about protecting women's rights to privacy and dignity with the Equality Act.