No True Transwoman - transadvocates question whether TW is 'genuine' after said TW sexually harasses women in homeless shelter

[CaitlynsCat]

abc30.com/3514544/

'It says the shelter requires them to shower in groups, and it opened its doors to a person who identified themself as a transgender woman who made lewd and sexually inappropriate comments, and leered at them while they were naked.

"This is the biggest fear they bring up, that you're going to have people who may not even be transgender in bathrooms and settings where people are naked and their privacy rights are being violated," said Peter Kapetan, who filed the lawsuit on behalf of the women.

Poverello House administrators tell Action News federal law says they have to treat a person identifying as a woman as a woman -- and there's no way to test whether it's true.'

'
The women say they repeatedly complained to staff members, but were told if they didn't respect the person's decision to identify as a woman, and if they refused to take showers at the same time, they'd get kicked out of the shelter.
'

'Karen Adell Scot, a local transgender advocate, even offered to train Naomi's House employees on how to recognize people just pretending to identify as the opposite gender.'

SMG that's because you use a different meaning to the word 'men'.

What do you call an adult human of the sex that produces motile gametes to fertilise ova?

I know Oldman. You do good work. I followed you until Twitter made it impossible for me.

Thanks. May I ask how Twitter stopped you following me? I don't mind at all if you stopped because I talk rubbish sometimes , but you've piqued my curiosity saying Twitter stopped you following me.

I have reasonable confidence that the women who manage and run these spaces would be able to risk assess and screen out inappropriate presentations (what you described as men pretending).

SMG I have used the language from the article in the OP.

'Karen Adell Scot, a local transgender advocate, even offered to train Naomi's House employees on how to recognize people just pretending to identify as the opposite gender"

My fear is that this could make it much harder to control the transfer of born-male, transgender prisoners to women’s prisons.

I'm not trying to pretend there isn't potentially a problem. This is why there needs to be rigorous risk assessments and appropriate application of the EA regardless of how someone identifies.

SMG: ?

SupermatchGame Pratchet

Rather than all this training and pontificating let’s just keep penises out of female only spaces.

What do you call an adult human of the sex that produces motile gametes to fertilise ova?

I would call them a male. Most males are men though.

It doesn't really matter what I think though. If we stuck to legal definitions it would support a common language and reduce potential for misunderstanding.

Thanks! Asking SMG to explain a deliberate misleading claim that they don't support men's access to women's spaces.

I'm not trying to pretend there isn't potentially a problem. This is why there needs to be rigorous risk assessments and appropriate application of the EA regardless of how someone identifies.

Perhaps you could reassure the prison governor quoted in the Daily Mail, the women's refuge worker & the American homeless workers then?

SMG: ?

I don't like your tone Pratchet! Don't try and rush me into replying in the hope that you're going to trip me up somehow.

Oops, sorry Pratchet I got caught out with just initials on another thread and thought you had too.

So you do support male access to female spaces.

Don't say sorry you were being nice

The issues seems to me to be how do we identify and prevent men or women pretending to be the opposite gender for self gratification/ to harm others?

Whilst clinical professionals can probably weed out some of the less clever ones, I don't believe this is feasible. Especially because we're not just talking actual Gender Dysphoria sufferers but Autogynephile fetishists who get included under the trans banner. How can anyone possibly say the latter are "genuine" or "not genuine"? Though honestly, I am unwilling to even go down that road. Whether someone is "genuine trans" or not, they're still their biological sex which is the actual, measurable difference. Everything other than that is vague and unprovable.

I personally (as a woman not in need of a a refuge from a specific individual) don’t believe there is a significant risk to allowing mtf transgender persons into ‘female ‘ only spaces - BUT I do expect the spaces to ensure adherence to behavioural rules eg no voyeurism in showers)

Again, I don't think that's possible. I'm hopefully not going to make myself sound like a predator here but if you put me in a shower with a bunch of naked women, I'm probably going to get turned on. Hell just sharing sleeping facilities could do it what with all those women around me in their underwear etc. What's the difference between looking at a woman in the shower and voyeurism anyway? For a straight male, not much.

Which I have. You are pretending that you don't support male access to female spaces.

The solution for women is to keep males out of female spaces. I'm sure men with their superior ingenuity can find a solution for the male problem of male violence against males.

& then of course there are the women in the Scottish female estate.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

I would think that 'training' people to identify who is 'genuinely' transgender is an impossibility!

Or could also be called "gate keeping", that thing that TRAs want to do away with, when it involves a medical professional suggesting that transition is not going to be helpful to an individual

It doesn't really matter what I think though. If we stuck to legal definitions it would support a common language and reduce potential for misunderstanding

You may have identified an important issue here.

I would call them a male. Most males are men though.

But some males are?

What the frack is this conversation? Who's talking to who?

A post op trans woman doesn't produce motile gametes and could be legally male. So no. They are not male.

For non post op trans woman they could still be legally women. In terms of accessing female spaces, if they allowed natal males in then they wouldn't be female only spaces (as has been pointed out here before).

It is up to individual organisations that provide services for vulnerable people to define the inclusion criteria. Whether that be on the basis of gender or sex. Within those organisations there would still be a need to provide sex segregation for personal facilities.

It's like the end of humanity this forum. Fecking depressing.

Look, it is very very simple.

Does the person have a penis?
No. Then they can be admitted to a female safe space like a refuge.
Yes. Then sorry but they will need to find somewhere else.

Why has this become so difficult?

The deeply insulting thing about the Nixon case is that they were rejected because they had just transitioned, and the shelter asked them to apply again in a year or two.

sorry:

A post op trans woman doesn't produce motile gametes and could be legally female