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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

OP posts:
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phoenixfeather88 · 12/12/2018 15:38

I have been a member of Girlguiding for 26 years; I have worked my way up the organisation from Rainbow to Unit Leader, I have gone on international camps, I have opened units and trained other leaders, and I have been a leader for three of the four youth sections. I have written a 7-page letter to Girlguiding about how the way they have gone about this is the last straw for me and I want out. About 4 of those pages were about the dreadful issues I've had to deal with from other leaders, so this is not the whole issue for me. I fully support including trans people, but not the way Girlguiding has gone about it. Add to that the fact that I didn't receive any communication about this at the time. I don't think there was any prior consultation - I may be wrong but I hadn't seen anything.

If I were to identify as male, I would be stripped of all my qualifications that are open to female members only, qualifications I have worked hard for.

I don't agree that accomodation should be gender-segregated, there are reasons why it needs to be sex-segregated.

Some of my friends are trans and they agree what what I'm saying. They and I are shocked at the potential for an all-biologically-male leadership team (who all identify as female, but are biologically male) to be taking away a group of young girls on a trip. For school trips, there must be at least one person of the same biological makeup of the young participants - why not Guiding too? Every year they do something that makes it harder for the average leader.

phoenixfeather88 · 12/12/2018 15:39

PS - thankyou, AgnesBadenPowell, for your hard efforts.

happydappy2 · 12/12/2018 15:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WeRiseUp · 12/12/2018 16:59

Flowers Phoenix

It is pitifully sad that girls are going to miss out on caring, experienced leaders like you and be put at risk of exposure to male predators instead.

Coyoacan · 12/12/2018 17:10

Does anyone know if this new policy has affected membership numbers?

drspouse · 12/12/2018 21:31

I noticed comments on GG's ads on FB talking about the issue and replies saying "I'm sure common sense will be applied when groups go away".
Ha.

KeiTeNgeNge · 12/12/2018 21:40

Wow I just can’t believe they are continuing down this path

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 12/12/2018 21:53

"I'm sure common sense will be applied when groups go away".

Their policies are doing an excellent job of making that impossible.

I've seen those comments too. I hope they're spreading the message to a wider audience.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 12/12/2018 22:00

I just can’t believe they are continuing down this path

It's coming from a very high up place, girl guiding and the others have been told to take the 'no debate' stance. They are still doing that.

You have to remember this was all supposed to go smoothly and unnoticed by the majority of the population.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 12/12/2018 22:01

I wonder if they, as an organisation have been tricked into signing some kind of agreement or contract.

Coyoacan · 13/12/2018 04:01

Don't they get funding as a charity?

sashh · 13/12/2018 04:28

In the meeting, it was also said that whatever they did would "discriminate against someone"

FFS.,

HIS is why I start my 'equality and diversity' teaching with legal, common sense, examples of discrimination.

Not all discrimination is illegal and some of it is there for good reason. The current policy discriminates against men, them not being allowed to do personal care, male children of guide leaders, girls who are not in the guides who want to go to camp, the girl guides themselves as they have to obey different rules to the leaders.

SonEtLumiere · 13/12/2018 10:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sashh · 13/12/2018 11:09

You goty a Glinner name check OP

yestheyhavethesamedad · 13/12/2018 12:52

There is a lot of comments deleted or disabled from the facebook page , some adverts say there is 20 comments but only 3 showing , i think they are deleting anything critical or that asks about safeguarding

Qcng · 13/12/2018 13:00

sashh
Thanks for sharing that interview I just listened to all of it. It's the first I've come across it.
Glinner is so passionate and covers so many important things. I have actually shared it with my Dad now!

sashh · 13/12/2018 13:41

Qcng

No problem, he sounds so passionate and clearly cares about his wife, daughter and other women and girls.

Gonzales27 · 13/12/2018 16:01

Thanks for sharing, it's wonderful. I especially love to hear 2 men debating it's passionately, make me feel that we're not on our own. Was it a recent recording?

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