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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

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SardineReturns · 19/05/2018 22:22

"In the meeting, it was also said that whatever they did would "discriminate against someone". "

So they chose to discriminate against cunty people. Guides. That's a bit sad.

I also think their legal advice sounds wonky and I am surprised that they are sticking to their guns so firmly.

Interesting that head is mates with stonewall, they are a single issue group now.

I suspect that GG in general - all the volunteers etc - are unaware / oblivious to all this. I can't imagine it will go down very well. Loads of those women do it because it is single sex ie for cunty girls, because they recognise the issues they face and think it's good for them to have time without blokes around.

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 22:23

Thy have been reported to the charity commission by fair play for women - who have done sterling work supporting guiders.

I don't think there's been a response yet. I think everyone is waiting for the updated EHRC guidance to be published.

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UpstartCrow · 19/05/2018 22:23

I feel like the flagship women's groups are the ones being targeted.

ScaredPAD · 19/05/2018 22:24

Gosh I don't want to believe this. :( I want to believe in a female led feminist leaning outdoorsy organisation for girls. :(

We're teetering on going up to scouts instead of guides as it is. But it's just the age I thought she'd appreciate female only space.

Melamin · 19/05/2018 22:25

I feel like the flagship women's groups are the ones being targeted

^^this

ScaredPAD · 19/05/2018 22:25

It really is. And why invade the woman only spaces :( it's just not fair
We're losing this battle and the war . Erasure.

Terfing · 19/05/2018 22:26

This would be so simply solved if people weren't treating 'sex' and 'gender' as synonymous words! Grrrrrrrr!

On a side note, most girl-guiding activities aren't very ladylike... I would imagine that if we are doing the gender thing, then GG would appeal most to trans boys and non-binary kids? Surely dainty CIs girls will be more into Disney princesses and the like? Confused

Maryz · 19/05/2018 22:28

The list of leaders I know who are discussing leaving over this is growing Sad

This (the legal bollocks advice and the fact that GG are just rolling over and accepting it) is proof that the sex based exceptions outlined in the equality act (or whatever it's called, I'm not in the UK) isn't worth the paper it's written on once "transwomen are women" is the generally accepted truth.

There will be no exceptions or opt-outs at all.

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 22:31

Some units are very un-ladylike and involve lots of outdoorsy stuff. Other units are full of Disney princess/royal wedding themed stuff, principally based on finding a rich man to marry while wearing a big dress and tiara. GG have even launched special Harry & Meghan commemorative badges Hmm

You'll be pleased to know my rainbows made slime. Grin

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Elletorro · 19/05/2018 22:32

Agnes

Who are GG’s lawyers?

Also who insures them?

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 22:35

I'm absolutely certain that GG got the legal advice they wanted. As they conceded at the end of the meeting, there's no test case. It's just finding a lawyer who agrees with you.

I'm not leaving voluntarily. I am concerned that I will be forced out.

I think individual guiders are worried about this, but as I said in previous threads, any discussion on this issue is shut down. Unofficial GG forums (10k members, not fringe groups) delete posts about trans issues. Posts that do stand talk of "girls in a boy's body" and female penises. Gendered intelligence has put together "training" resources for leaders.

Women are being conditioned to believe this nonsense, and silenced if they publicly disagree.

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Babieseverywhere · 19/05/2018 22:36

The guides are just a big joke now.

I have already removed my guide and brownie. The guide isn't doing another group. My brownie is moving to cubs where the actual group vows to segrate by sex. Let's hope they can :(

My youngest is still in rainbows but I am thinking of moving her to Beavers now but will certainly not go to brownies, she will have the chance of cubs if she wants later on.

TBH the local cub group is fantastic and they are a lot more outside motivated and have a good mix of kids. Where as the rainbow/brownies/guides troops are more girly crafts and the like.

Seeing as the only advantage of the girls groups was the joy of being in a single sex group and that no longer exists...We are moving to the scouts groups instead.

ScaredPAD · 19/05/2018 22:36

Hmmm I need to find out if our local units are unladlylike and outdoorsy in advance of her deciding which group....Hmmm.

OldmanOfTheWeb3 · 19/05/2018 22:39

Might want to pass this along to Transgender Trend as the GG statement that it would be illegal to discriminate conflicts with TT's guidance to schools on the same issue. Seems unlikely that it's true for the GG's yet not true for schools.

Seconding the other posters as well - you should ask if they sought actual legal advice and what that legal advice was and from who. (The last just in case it's from Mermaids or something stupid like that).

Elletorro · 19/05/2018 22:40

Agnes

I want to contact their lawyers and their insurers.

They have got the law wrong.

Please every guider on here you need to contact your MP about this. Mention safeguarding failures akin to Rotherham.

We need MPs to be aware that this is a political problem and they need to be involved in resolving it or they lose votes

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 22:40

I believe the lawyers are BLP.

Their insurance broker is Aon and their public liability insurer is MS Amlin.

Disclaimer: I used to work at Aon but not on the GG account. I'm not convinced that underwriters know or fully realise the implications of this policy.

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Elletorro · 19/05/2018 22:41

Thanks Agnes

Would you PM me?

PencilsInSpace · 19/05/2018 22:45

Yes, who are their lawyers? Who has told them this?

Is gendered intelligence behind this?

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

This is great news aside from anything else that's going on. Thank you for your bravery and persistence Flowers

Ifonlyus · 19/05/2018 22:45

"Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy." What the what? I can't believe so many high up in Guiding would be okay with that? Are they thinking it is so unlikely they will actually get a trans leader that they think it is a non-issue and easier to go along with legal advice? Who was this legal advice from? It's rather worrying.

To think that less than 10 years ago, I couldn't openly be atheist and be a leader in yet so quickly we've jumped to admitting gender-self identifying males with open arms.

SeahorsesAREhorses · 19/05/2018 22:55

The message the girl guides now send is that to be a girl you have to perform girl.

How sad is that.

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 22:58

Absolutely. Membership of guiding is now based on performing femininity.

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DebbieInBirmingham · 19/05/2018 22:58

Thanks, Agnes, for the work you are doing. The key people are the leaders who know that the guidance is dangerous and open to abuse but daren't say so for fear of sounding like a bigot. They need to feel confident to be able to open their mouths and point out common sense: male children are not the same as female children and there are times when they need to be treated differently.

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 23:05

We definitely need leaders to come forward with their concerns. Because if the shit hits the fan, the leaders will be called to account.

This isn't about transphobia. It's about protecting kids from adults who would abuse them (and the trans community) to offend. It's about letting girls know that they are valuable and loved as they are. And about letting girls know that they have the right to assert their own boundaries.

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Elletorro · 19/05/2018 23:12

Absolutely leaders need to be writing to their MPs and arranging meetings ASAP

averylongtimeasSpartacus · 19/05/2018 23:17

Have you tried to post this on the fb groups?

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