Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girlguiding - an update

418 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 19/05/2018 21:23

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AgnesBadenPowell · 10/09/2018 23:55

https://twitter.com/womansplacee_uk/status/1039272638831579136?s=21

Girlguiding - an update
OP posts:
BlackeyedSusan · 11/09/2018 00:23

second speaker listed sounds interesting...

do we know her?

Wink
IAmSproutycus · 11/09/2018 09:30

No further forward folks, but another attempt to add to our wee pile. Will not be disheartened but will simply see this as another twig to add to the bonfire.

From: Complaints
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2018 9:19:37 AM
To: XXXXXXXX
Subject: Ref XXXXXX

Dear XXXXX
Thank you for contacting us regarding our policy on equality and diversity, and please accept our apology for the delay in getting back to you.

Our guidelines comply with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear that organisations providing single-sex services such as Girlguiding should treat people according to their acquired gender. As such, and in line with our values of inclusion, we welcome all girls and young women, both cisgender and transgender.

Both cis and trans females can undertake all adult roles in guiding and may, if they wish, make their Promise. This approach is consistent with the law, which permits single sex services but prevents discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment (i.e. discrimination against trans people). Girlguiding has male volunteers that support the organisation and can take on any role that is not defined as being for women only (such as the unit leader role). We practice safe recruitment procedures and an individual can only become a volunteer if there is an appropriate role for them. Any adult volunteer who hasn’t gone through our recruitment process will not have unsupervised access to girls.

All activities we undertake, including residentials, are planned and managed through effective and compliant checking processes and are monitored throughout by local commissioners. All accommodation and showering arrangements are clearly planned and supported to ensure we offer accessibility for all.

It is good practice not to disclose if a young member is trans without their consent and in some cases would be unlawful. This is to safeguard the trans person who may be very vulnerable, and open to discrimination and abuse. If you are uncomfortable about your daughter potentially sharing accommodation, for whatever reason, you can discuss alternative accommodation and facilities with their leader. However, in accordance with our policy, they will not be able to tell you if there is a trans child in the unit without the permission of that child and their parents.

I hope that this answers you query and thank you again for contacting us.

Best wishes,
The Complaints Team
Girlguiding

17-19 Buckingham Palace Road
London
SW1W 0PT

Email: [email protected]

Tel: 020 7834 6242
Web: www.girlguiding.org.uk

From: XXXXXX
Sent: 11 September 2018 XXXX
To: Complaints
Subject: RE: Ref XXXXX

Dear Team,

Thank you for your reply.

Having considered this I feel I can see where the issue is arising. The Equality Act 2010 does not suggest that single sex children’s organisations assort individuals as per their gender, but does make provision for considering the inclusion of individuals who are transsexual. Under this weighty guidance, which I am sure you have read in full (I recall it took me the best part of two full days when it was published so I feel your pain!), provision is made for the potential inclusion of individuals who have determined to permanently identify as the sex of their preference. This of course does not include gender fluid or gender binary individuals, but only those with the clear and considered intent to live permanently as if their chosen sex. The document at no point references the capability of children to make such a legal decision. It is difficult to assume that the status of a child aged 12, say, should be assumed to be capable of making a permanent decision of this magnitude. For this reason tattoos and so on are not legal until the child is over 18.

The law made provision at that point for individuals to be treated for the purposes of the law ‘as if’ they were that new sex. The ‘as if’ is extremely important. It is akin to the legal provision for companies such as Tesco to be held accountable to certain laws ‘as if’ they were an individual (known as ‘corporate personality’). It does not mean that we actually believe that Tesco is a walking human being, but that we will apply the law ‘as if’ they were in certain circumstances. For this reason we will treat all transsexual (but not transgender) individuals ‘as if’ they were the acquired sex, but the fact that we know that the individual is not in point of fact a girl (for the purposes of guiding). The law also recognised this point, and made provision for exceptions to be made in the case of single sex services (such as those in which there is a legitimate argument to be made for the benefit of the membership to be able to access single sex provision).

As you will be well aware, as women we lag behind the rights and safety of our male colleagues. We are more vulnerable to rape and sexual assault, pay differentials and employment discrimination, inadequate provision of sex-specific healthcare, amongst other issues. We know that boys do better in mixed sex schools whereas girls perform at a significantly higher level when in single sex provision. We have long benefited from single sex space for girls so that they can learn and develop in a place where they are not distracted by ‘performing’ under the male gaze, or are crowded out by males who are socialised to feel more confidently that the space is their own. Girl Guiding has long been that space for our daughters, where they are validated for their own talents and encouraged to flourish into strong women upon whom the world can depend.

I have grown through Brownies and Guides (alas too old to have had a turn at Rainbows!), and have volunteered in the past in the organisation. I believe it is a laudable aim to promote inclusivity, and a truly ‘Guiding’ aim at that. We must think hard about how we can support, but where we must not ‘include’. Our women’s space is not diluted by excluding males, but strengthened. We must educate ourselves about the difference between sex and gender, and recognise that women and girls are not raped, assaulted, overwhelmed, outcrowded, or silenced by how men feel in their heads, but by their sexed bodies and presence in our space.

It is too easy to reject these views as simply being ‘outdated’, ‘uneducated’, ‘bigoted’. Most of the women I know who are campaigning hard for better understanding of this issue are the same women who have marched for better trans provision, who have stood with our trans partners as they fought for their needs. I myself have provided trans-supportive training and written guidance for organisations on inclusion and support. I believe in the right of any individual to self-identify, but not in their right to tell others what they must believe. It would be akin to my forcing other people to state that they believed in my God because I am offended that they do not. I stand for better trans spaces and support, and I also stand to maintain and protect single sex women’s spaces.

Guiding has confused gender with sex, and also the provision of the Equality Act as a binding law which forces us to include men in women’s spaces simply because these people ‘feel’ female. I think that the response provided below (thank you once more) has misunderstood the Act and the implications of a wholesale application of the act to a children’s organisation. I beg you to reconsider your position and to recognise the size and strength of opposition to your standpoint.

I look forward to your response once more,

Yours in Guiding,
XXXXXX

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 11/09/2018 11:50

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

MipMipMip · 11/09/2018 12:00

Wow. Perfect.

BeUpStanding · 11/09/2018 12:10

Not sure if this link will work, but yesterday The Times had an article on how GG have just signed a sponsorship deal with the army:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girlguiding-uk-angers-peace-groups-by-signing-deal-with-army-q6xwgwgt9

This is especially concerning if the GG are also going to be actively targeting vulnerable or disadvantaged girls.

BeUpStanding · 11/09/2018 12:11

And that is a brilliant letter IAmSproutycus

happydappy2 · 11/09/2018 12:27

iamsproutycus great letter. GG have said to me, ‘due to our differences of opinions, any further communication from you will not receive a response.’
I hope they continue a dialogue with you.
I have also emailed The PM directly about this but doubt she’ll read it, but you never know....

InflagranteDelicto · 11/09/2018 12:40

That is a fantastic letter, IamSproutycus

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 11/09/2018 12:45

Wow, that's brilliant, IAmSproutycus! Star

SwiftNC · 11/09/2018 14:34

Looks like GG are not denying Jane Fae is one of the "experts in the field" who they have taken/continue to take advice from - it's on twitter now, and they are obfuscating their response to the questions asked about Jane Fae's involvement in the making of their mixed sex policy.

Wanderabout · 11/09/2018 14:38

That's interesting Swift. Does anyone have a link?

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 11/09/2018 14:49

twitter.com/Girlguiding/with_replies

Girlguiding - an update
averylongtimeago · 11/09/2018 14:51

Here they are, carefully not replying to the questions.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 11/09/2018 15:01

So hold on

They say GG is a single gender (not single sex) org
That any boy or man can get involved on uttering the magic words "I am female"
That transgirls and girls can and will bunk together without any parents being warned - as we have been advised previously by them "transgirls are girls so there are no safeguarding considerations required" despite the fact that if you give teenagers with dicks and cunts the space to do so, babies can happen

  • for older ones there is the ? of IDing specifically to get access

Then, we have then being advised by one of the countries leading advocates for the legalisation of extreme porn (havehad a thread on this before)
And someone who is ? around boudaries with a very difficult family background + predilictions (furry / adult baby stuff) from a young age with much older men involved > I feel there may well have been abuse from various directions of that person + their proposals around trans issues may have come from the parent that they were lose to + put together terf blocker with etc
Then the govt want to get loads of vulnerable children mainly girls to join up
And they have joined forces with the Army

WTF is going on. Have they gone mad?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 11/09/2018 15:04

independent on army thing - i don't have a times sub

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 11/09/2018 15:15

When all your policy is rewritten by someone who would have a complete narcissistic meltdown in your offices if you question their words, it is no wonder all these agencies have buckled.

They all need a woman of substance to review everything and get it back into line.

Before some teenage girl gets hurt.

Wanderabout · 11/09/2018 15:35

Thanks Shrodingers.

Badgerthebodger · 11/09/2018 21:00

Lemonjello and Iamsproutycas bloody well done wims Star

WTF are GG on? It’s a fucking car crash. I am appalled that there are so many agencies who have been groomed to accept this safeguarding disaster. However, you have both inspired me to write as well, as a former Brownie and Guide who was part of the oranisation until I turned 15 and discovered vodka and boys I want to help in any way I can because this stinks to high heaven. It’s about time some of these organisations got brave enough for a proper discussion.

deepwatersolo · 11/09/2018 21:19

Then the govt want to get loads of vulnerable children mainly girls to join up. And they have joined forces with the Army. WTF is going on. Have they gone mad?

You know that this sounds like the setup for another alledged Presidio-General D'Aquino military paedophile conspiracy, right?

www.nytimes.com/1987/11/16/us/army-will-close-child-care-center.html

Someone hand me my tinfoil hat, haha...

HawkeyeInConfusion · 11/09/2018 21:38

Love your email IAmSproutycus.

I am a lot less enamoured by the one from GG.

And, once again, thanks for fighting this fight Agnes. If only GGHQ had your strength, sense and integrity.

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 12/09/2018 21:12

What are the details around the law regarding loco parentis? I wonder could this activity be illegal.

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 12/09/2018 21:12

Surely there is some sort of disclosure obligation.

AdventuringThroughLife · 15/09/2018 23:50

Sooooo theres a thread in chat about a 15year old boy helping in Brownies. And everyone saying this is fine.

Is this usual?

AdventuringThroughLife · 15/09/2018 23:53

Sorry - was looking for a GG thread in feminism to ask the Q on but realise this was for updating about GG. Apologies if misplaced post.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.