Girlguiding - an update

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Firstly, apologies for being offline for a while. It's been a busy few weeks, I went on holiday and started a new job. But back on it now!

You'll know that an article was published in the Sunday Times in March and a couple of weeks later the open letter went in: the final tally was 927 signatures (some of these collected after publication).

Since then I met the CEO, deputy CEO and chief guide. Prior to that, I was warned in emails to use the internal procedures for complaints and to not make things public (I did, and was ignored). I was also "reminded" of the social media policy and told that the campaign would not change the trans policy.

It's probably not appropriate to share my full notes from that meeting here. But I will say that Girlguiding was defensive and prickly. The fact that I have publicly discussed the trans policy on social media in particular irritated Julie Bentley (CEO). I don't know why; the policy is a public document available on the website.

Girlguiding stressed to me that the legal advice they received confirmed that they HAVE to treat trans members (including those who self identify, not just with a GRC) as the opposite sex) as the gender they identify as.

We did agree that in the absence of a test case, there is no legal precedent. It was left that we would await the updated EHRC guidance expected next month before any review is conducted (if they chose to review it).

We did discuss the inconsistencies that the trans policy brings about, eg GG has strict rules that accompanying male children on leaders must have separate sleeping and washing facilities. Even boys as young as 4. But if that boy identified as a girl, then no such rules apply, despite there being no physical, material difference between the two groups of males. Girlguiding referred back to their legal advice that have to treat trans members as the gender they identify as. This includes males who identify as females providing personal care to girls on residentials, a role which is strictly for female leaders only according to GG's safeguarding policy.

We also discussed gender non confirming girls. There was an agreement that the language in the policy was rather clinical, and it could be interpreted as a strict instruction for a GNC girl to be removed from their unit. It was agreed that the policy language would be reviewed. This is particularly important as most trans issues within GG are, as you might expect, around girls who are transitioning.

One of the key issues for me is that girlguiding now offers single gender but mixed sex accommodation. I accept that the number of trans girls joining guides will be small compared to our overall membership - but it would only take one incident to cause huge harm to the children involved, their families and girlguiding. I suggested that GG might want to make the single gender / mixed sex aspect clearer, perhaps by adapting the standard consent form to advise parents that we don't guarantee single sex accommodation. Yet again, I was accused of wanting "out" individuals. That is not my intention at all.

I've heard nothing from girlguiding since. I will be following up on the action points. We will have a new CEO in June and updated EHRC guidance which will hopefully give all children equal rights to bodily privacy and autonomy, not just the trans kids.

It makes me so sad, my youngest daughter (Autistic) started going to Rainbows because of its Girl only policy. She was facing a lot of bullying at school from boys who were more confident about taking the piss out of her mannerisms and voice, the school were crap!

It was her sanctuary and when we moved back to Scotland she signed up to Brownies straight away. She is still very wary of boys, doesn't trust them even though she has never been bullied in her current High School. I feel that GG has jumped the gun on this issue, some legal experts are suggesting that other legal experts are not using the current legislation correctly, yet if they can't work it out then what hope do we. Today my daughter now 13yrs found out about the new policy and said "But mummy where do girls go to be safe now". It broke my heart. GG played a vital role in being a respite from male socialisation and dominance, gender doesn't alter that privilege as GG will find out over time. They have thrown girls sex based rights under a bus without due care and attention and it says to girls, your sex based oppression is of not consequence.

I know it’s a straw man, but I can’t get over Pip Bunce’s involvement in that meeting. Even hard line JB transgirls are girls must see the irony of believing this is dependent on what day of the week it is. Is there nothing that will flag to GGUK how nonsensical this stance is, and how damaging to actual girls and women?

I know it’s a straw man, but I can’t get over Pip Bunce’s involvement in that meeting. Even hard line JB transgirls are girls must see the irony of believing this is dependent on what day of the week it is

James Kirkup in The Spectator reports on David Lewis who is standing for the post of Women's Officer & self identifies-#WomanWednesday.

(extract)
What does self-identifying as a woman mean? In what way is David a woman on Wednesdays?
"I self-identify as a woman on Wednesdays, between 6.50am when my alarm goes off and around midnight when I go to bed.

My womanness is expressed by my saying ‘I self identify as a woman’ now and again on Wednesdays. I make no changes in my behaviour or my appearance. I keep my name, David and my male pronouns. I wear the same sort of clothes I wear the rest of the week. I keep my beard. I enjoy the full womanness of my beard.”

The Basingstoke Labour Party last week accepted the womanness of David and his beard'

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/meet-the-man-standing-to-be-a-labour-party-womens-officer/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3255971--womanwednesday-is-a-thing-now

I think I'll ask him if he fancies leading a Wednesday unit.
In fact we have some round here that need extra leaders ..

Is the #WomanWednesday thing a response to #ManFriday? Surely it's not serious? Surely Basingstoke LP know it's a joke?

Ignore my post - have caught up now! I see it IS a political protest move like #ManFriday. Awesome.

NoSquirrels
I've copied SwearyG's comments over from the other thread about David Lewis' motivations etc

"He said he was inspired by ManFriday, but was worried he’d overstepped the mark.
I met him at WPUK Basingstoke HerFemaleness and was really excited by this when we spoke. It's so relieving to have men on board because we know that some people listen to them more than they do to women."

I see nothing unreasonable about expecting adult leaders to have legal certification of reassigned gender. That sounds like the case already.

Well, I don't either. And of course GRCs already exist, just very few people have one.

But it isn't the case, not in GG or many other organisations. Self ID already exists in practice - say you're a woman or girl and that's enough.

I also worry about people who have gone through the difficult and expensive process of obtaining a GRC. While I may disagree with them, they've nevertheless shown an extraordinary amount of commitment, made huge personal sacrifices, in terms of time, money and subjecting themselves to the process of obtaining a GRC. Self ID undermines that commitment and predators will exploit the trans community as much as anyone else when they use self ID as a way to gain access to victims.

I am very, very nervous of the concept of policing someone's inner thoughts and feelings. It's almost as if we need a material, objective means of knowing whether someone is a man or woman, and allowing segregation between those groups at times when individuals are vulnerable, say when thy are undressed or sleeping.

@winniefred I just wanted to say I'm in Scotland, and along with a few others have been working on some demands for the Scottish govt in relation to the schools guidance and the GRA and by extension our sex based rights altogether. The schools guidance is something we are obviously trying to work with councils and others on as well, but we also want the govt to endorse our demands. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know as we are collecting stories from parents who have experienced issues due to what is happening re male inclusion and as you say, the erosion of the rights of girls. We recently formed the campaign group Women and Girls in Scotland, in order to campaign for our sex based rights and protections. If you have anything you would like to pass on, please DM, same for anyone else on the thread. It makes our position much more powerful if we can share stories of how this is impacting on girls now....

Bumping the last post.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/23/girlguides-get-period-poverty-badge-encourage-girls-discuss/

But surely this is transphobic biological essentialism as not all girls menstruate? Surely the transgirls will feel terribly uncomfortable and excluded and it will trigger their dysphoria?

@ferntwist the EA absolutely provides the grounds for it, the problem is that it has to be defended as a legitimate aim, and while most would agree that providing single sex accommodation and ensuring things like that only female adults are able to provide intimate care to girls etc, are absolutely legitimate aims, the issue is many orgs seem to essentially be assessing that legal action against would be far more likely if they were to employ the EA exemptions than not. This is why it's important to find out what the actual legal advice is that was given to GG. We need to highlight that the EA does not provide an imperative to ensure sex based rights are upheld, only the option to do it, and increasingly organisations are scared to uphold the option due to not only the potential for legal action, but because they don't want to appear 'transphobic'. We really do have a huge fight on our hands...

From the Telegraph: "It also emphasises that it is "not only girls and women who experience periods, as trans boys and non-binary people experience them too."

FFS, this is getting ridiculous.

Well there is absolutely no way this guider will be doing that bit if the badge with our 10-13 yr olds!!

I think it reads like jumping on the period poverty bandwagon in order to virtue signal whilst pushing an agenda of 'not just women have periods'. Very much like the trans agenda material. Ironic when the GG guidelines encourage trans boys out of guiding

Good Lord. I am hoping our local unit is more traditional .... I don't want that to be the emphasis :( This is truly crazy.

I dont suppose scouts have a period badge and focis on transviys having them!?

Guides as I knew it is dying :(

Again, out of the trans group, which ones are likely to need support re ‘normalising’ periods? Is it the ones guides are kicking out of guides maybe?

It shows them up. It is clear that what they are doing is changing the purpose of guides from sex based to gender ID based.

It would be funny if it wasn’t such a tragedy - why do they think transboys/women and some non-binary people menstruate? Is is because they are female no matter what their gender identity is?

Lordy. Just read that article, not just girls and women have periods but correct language should be used to avoid confusion. Really. Am I supposed to read this with a straight face.

But no. They know that Guiding's single sex status is a huge part of
its appeal to girls and to parents alike. They know single sex
organisations are important for girls, But the current leadership
want to suck up to men too, and they've decided that that is more important.

It strikes me as though the "exploitative men" have nowhere to find victims anymore. What with religion dying out, grooming gangs being jailed, parents being more aware etc etc.
We all are sure big money is behind this sudden explosion in trans matters. Is it possible it's a way to find victims long term?
If you can convince enough women as girls to accept female penis and men where they really should not be, you get them and the next generation as potential victims.possibly even the generation after.

Of course I could well be mucho paranoid.
Here's hoping in fact I am paranoid

Flooffloof No, you are not paranoid. The Mens rights activists just want us all to roll over, literally and figuratively. Keep on resisting, all you fantastic ,strong and articulate women

I want to do the period poverty badge with my unit, but unless one of the girls brings it up, I'm not going to go there with discussing trans boys / non-binary. If they ask, I will emphasise that they all share the female reproductive system, no matter how they present themselves.

I worry about Guides being groomed from the top down. I would shut down my unit before I let a predator have access to the girls. Though perhaps that is also a win for them - if they can't infiltrate, get it shut down.

Let me get this straight: trans boys (AFAB) are categorically not allowed but biological boys are? That's not very inclusive? As pp have said, it's about performing femininity.