Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

if a trans woman was attacked or raped I hope as a society we would allow her to access support in a domestic violence or rape crisis hostel rather than dismissing her as a dangerous male.

So would I! That’s why it’s so important for people to fight for more services for Male bodied people and lgbt+ services.

What about transmen? Do you think it’s appropriate to put a female bodied person in a male homeless hostel? A transman was raped in one in Newcastle only last year.

Also it’s not just people who access them, but those who work in them too.

Well potplant as we've established I'm happy with you giving feedback if for some reason it makes you feel good to post it. But like you say, you're rather the same sort of person at the end of the day.

And as for sneerily; never been my intention, but you should have a little think about the balance of power on MN between my viewpoint and your own. You might want to consider the tone of the posters on either side of the debate with this clear power imbalance in mind.

And as for dismissed; you will hopefully see that I have made far more concessions in my posts to the opposing view than has ever been made to mine. And I don't berate them for it. I have never once derided anyone for it. And yet you use the word "dismissed".

so that you can push a particular libertarian agenda.

Yes, you could almost say she's a certain kind of person, with a certain kind of view.

No one is required to make concessions to a perspective that they think is wrong, lacking in empathy, and harmful to women.

Less fun answer than merrymouse’s, but I’d seek urgent psychiatric help on the grounds that the only possible explanation for this would be that I was suffering a sudden-onset delusional disorder.

Yep.

And actually this is the feminist attitude that is most suited to my life and the lives of the women I encounter - but we, of course, are not all women; we're a corner of womanhood in a privileged western country. What furthers us in the world won't help women elsewhere.

Yes, full quote - still means you are alright Jack and fuck the rest of them.

I am a white woman, middle England, with house, car, well paid job and should I wish to - could happily pay to access female spaces - but here's the thing - I can extrapolate and see other women's and girl's points of view particularly when it comes to the threat of men.

You seem to centre men and are more worried about their feelings. That is your choice of course - but don't pretend you have any women's or girl's safety or security in mind when you do it.

When men stop raping, beating and murdering women and girls, then it might be time to start worrying about them. Til then, they need to sort themselves out.

@RatRolyPoly

You've remarked that you keep being accused of being male, and other posters are trying to explain why they've made that mistake. It's because you won't accept that women have legitimate concerns, and you don't view any situation as it would be viewed by someone who is vulnerable and weak. You have no sympathy whatsoever for the weak, they seem to merit contempt.

And I don't berate them for it. I have never once derided anyone for it

You just said of me:

'That's either bad faith on your part, or poor comprehension.'

I wouldn't label myself as rad or liberal, but instead a rational feminist.

My answers are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

• No

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

• of course not!

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

• no

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

• no

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

• the TRA AGP lot, yes; genuine transsexuals, no

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?

• yes

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

• I had this with my youngest son; I just continually affirmed that it's just 'stuff' and it doesn't matter whether you're a boy or a girl; he was reassured by this & stopped thinking he 'should' be a girl pretty quickly. He's now 13 & totally comfortable with being a boy who likes a range of things.

I like your thinking DaisyTwirl

Rational feminism makes sense to me too.

I can’t see any difference between Daisy’s answers and those of the vast majority of radical feminists who’ve already answered your (loaded) questions.

It's because you won't accept that women have legitimate concerns

I have said time and time again, I accept that women have concerns. I accept that some of those concerns are legitimate. I have clearly expressed which concerns I believe to be unfounded on many threads over a good long time here on MN, and I clearly have reasonable arguments as to why I think this.

That we continue to disagree is not necessarily something that can be avoided.

and you don't view any situation as it would be viewed by someone who is vulnerable and weak.

Well if you're talking about me personally, don't believe myself to be vulnerable and weak. The people who have tried to convince me I am are overwhelmingly men. Oh, and a few feminists on MN.

You have no sympathy whatsoever for the weak, they seem to merit contempt.

I have the utmost sympathy and compassion for those who feel weak - I have been weak - beyond weak to the point of it nearly taking my life. But I want women to see themselves as strong, because i see us as strong. So when someone tells me they're weak I will tell them that they can be strong, because how else will they believe it?

And that doesn't mean not putting in protections for women so that our specific vulnerabilities are not exploited, it simply means not painting as the weaker sex because of those vulnerabilities.

@Rufustheyawningreindeer

Rufus can you pm me one of those are you lib fem or rad fem tests please?

Well if you're talking about me personally, don't believe myself to be vulnerable and weak.

We get that. Totally.

When your coping mechanism/recovery mantra is alienating the other women you keep trying to impose it on maybe it's time to realize that just because it was helpful for you that doesn't mean that trying to force it on them is a good plan.

because although undoubtedly women would be very, very safe with this arrangement, their right to be protected in the world has gone too far to obliterate our right to be a part of it.

It's quite hard to read this kind of paragraph and not think that you are categorizing yourself s3perately to women, rat. You talk about their rights (women) and our rights as two things.
This maybe why posters like juells think you are male. It is odd

So of a full quote including this line;

"What furthers us in the world won't help women elsewhere."

Yes, full quote - still means you are alright Jack and fuck the rest of them.

And on me saying I had never derided anyone for "dismissing" my views...

You just said to me: That's either bad faith on your part, or poor comprehension.'

So it is poor comprehension then.

And yes these questions are very loaded. How about:

Do you think female spaces should be open to any man who says he identifies as a woman?

Do you see any potential pitfalls with that approach?

You talk about their rights (women) and our rights as two things.

I say "their" because I'm referring to the specific women in the example. I then say "our" because I am referring to the rights of women in general.

When your coping mechanism/recovery mantra is alienating the other women you keep trying to impose it on maybe it's time to realize that just because it was helpful for you that doesn't mean that trying to force it on them is a good plan.

Angry can you not see how your comment could equally be lobbied the other way?

Seriously, in the context of this broader debate, please do think about that.

I can’t think of any right or service that both I and a trans woman would need that wouldn’t be common to the entire population.

No, Rat, because you're the only person here who appears to be using your political argument - in your case "I used to be weak but now I'm Strong!" - as a coping mechanism. Notice that I've never said that I personally feel afraid in any of the situations in which you're constantly touting your own strength and bravery? The difference is that unlike you I have empathy for other women and care about how things impact them.

Maybe try being less selfish?

@merrymouse

I can’t think of any right or service that both I and a trans woman would need that wouldn’t be common to the entire population.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain?

Angry when I said "in the context of the wider debate" I really did mean just that.

I meant for you to consider what your response would be in your comment was lobbied in the other direction - the other direction in the debate - not the other direction between you and i.